I Never Thought I’d Be a Mother: Adoption, Motherhood & Lessons from My Daughters

A Personal Mother’s Day Introduction

Judy Oskam 0:02

Welcome to Stories of Change and Creativity. I'm Judy Oskam, a professor of mass communication at Texas State University, and a proud mom. Well, on this episode, it's especially personal. There was a time in my life when I wasn't sure I would ever become a mother. The future was uncertain and really different from what I had dreamed about. But life has a way of opening doors we never expected. For our family, adoption became the path that brought us all together. And it was the beginning of one of the greatest gifts of my life. So in honor of Mother's Day, I'm joined by my daughters, Danielle and Jessica. We have an honest and heartfelt conversation, and I'm inviting you to listen in. We talk about adoption, family, belonging, and really a bunch of other stuff that's connected with motherhood. It certainly is a story about change and creativity. I hope you enjoy our conversation. I'm excited to be talking with you, Dani, on this Mother's Day special.

Dani Oskam 1:09

Yay, Mother's Day special.

Judy Oskam 1:11

Mother's Day special. And I, you know what I thought? And I don't know if my audience wants to hear this or not, but I really thought I would flip the table a little bit, flip the switch, and I would talk to you a little bit about what I've learned from you. Because it seems like Mother's Day, it's always about oh, what mothers do for everyone. And do you know what I mean?

Dani Oskam 1:34

Yes, I I know I'm you're lucky that I made you a mother. So I can't I totally get it. But it is it is about it is this is this is your day. Um, so I think that we should we you deserve to spend it however you would like.

Judy Oskam 1:52

Okay, good. Well, and I thought too, I would kind of tell you some things that I've learned from you. You want to start with that? Yeah. Okay, well fire fire away. What what do you think I'm gonna say? I don't know, I'm scared. I don't know, I'm scared. Well, I think one thing too, when you think about first of all, I never thought I would be a mom. I always wanted to be a mom, but it just took a while, you know. So it was always sort of a a dream to be a mom. Um and there was a time when I really didn't know if I was gonna be one. Did you always want to be a mom? You know, I think I always thought about kids in my future, you know? I always thought about that. I just didn't know when.

Dani Oskam 2:40

Did you ever think that you didn't want kids? Was there ever a a period where you were thinking maybe oh I I don't I'm not really interested in having kids at all?

Judy Oskam 2:53

You know, I don't know that I thought that. I know I thought I wasn't ready at a certain time because you know, I started my career and I was thinking about that, but I always sort of envisioned my life with kids. And when I was in um when I was in high school and college, I worked with kids in the summer and I really enjoyed working. I worked at the YMCA and I was a camp counselor and did things like so I always loved kids. I just think they're so creative and curious and fun.

Dani Oskam 3:27

You never give a now, you never have a moan of silence.

Judy Oskam 3:31

I know, I know, but I just so I guess to answer your question, I never really I never really saw my life with totally without children. So but now I could I could I mean I I have friends who don't have children, they have grateful lives, and I think that's perfectly fine.

Dani Oskam 3:54

And they connect with people and you know, do you think that you regret having children? Do I regret having children? Yeah, because I uh there's a s a series on TikTok um that this woman does, and it's called Regretful Parents. Oh wow, and they send her letters where they talk about their lives and their experience with having kids, and a lot and a lot of them are just like, I wish that I never had kids. But I wonder if you could also find people who wish they had had kids. I would say that I would prefer to regret maybe not having kids than regret having them at all. Because then you're stuck with them. Yeah. Because then what do you you have kids and you regret having them, and you're like, yeah, well, you know, if I had done it differently, I wouldn't have done it at all. And then you're stuck with them, because then what do you do, you know?

Judy Oskam 4:52

Well, kids are it, it's it's not easy being a parent.

Dani Oskam 4:55

And that's why it's so scary to me.

Judy Oskam 4:58

Well, it and sure, and you may decide never to have kids, and that's fine.

Dani Oskam 5:01

It does sound, you know, fun. And I feel like I've also always envisioned myself having kids, but I also, you know, don't really want to spend money on kids, I want to spend money on me.

Judy Oskam 5:12

Okay, well, and that's fine. That's the age you are, and that's fun. You're I didn't you know adopt you till I was 40.

Infertility & Adoption Path

Dani Oskam 5:19

And and then there's also, you know, there's also other ways of having kids that are not bio. Right, right. If that's something that you're into. That's true. That's true. And I mean, not everyone is, and I I understand the the want for bio kids. I get it. I think I'd have really cute, tall, athletic children. You think we would? I think I would. Hopefully they would inherit my, you know, yes, yes, five nine on a good day jeans. Yes, yes.

Judy Oskam 5:50

But yeah, I don't know. I mean, you know, we just we we had tried to have kids for a long time. We went through some infertility stuff, and then we we had a friend of a friend who had adopted from China, and that just kind of opened our eyes to some other options.

Dani Oskam 6:08

And I know I had asked you about this maybe once or twice, but you said said that you had infertility issues for a little while, and the next step was IVF, and that was and then was that just something that you decided not to pursue, or was it because you had this intervention with um a family that you knew who had adopted?

Judy Oskam 6:29

You know, I think I was looking at the odds of IVS at the time. Yeah, IV, yeah, IV. IVF.

Dani Oskam 6:36

Yeah, IVF in in vitro fertilization.

Judy Oskam 6:39

I uh yeah. And I think back then, and this was, you know, 20 some, well, how old are you? It's 20 some years ago. Over 25 years ago, right? Golly, right? Right. The token's gotten a lot different.

Dani Oskam 6:51

Technology is so much different now. I think right now the odds are highest that they've ever been. Yeah, but they're much different. But then they were not so good.

Judy Oskam 6:59

The odds were not as good. And I thought, well, you know, we're gonna spend all this money on a shot. Yeah, it was super expensive. Still is a super expensive. Still is, it still is, but anyway, we just kind of went the adoption route and it worked out great for us. So I'm a big fan of adoption. I think it's great. Obviously.

Dani Oskam 7:21

Obviously. I mean, there's some there's some parents. You know, you know, we haven't gotten a return. So there's no return here. There's no return.

Judy Oskam 7:30

No, no. So it's been interesting, but I tell you some things. I kind of started this with an idea of what I've learned from you guys, and hopefully I'll do uh an interview with Jess as well. That'll be kind of fun. Or maybe combine it with this. I just think I've learned so much about um trying to get better living in the moment with children. Because with kids, that time you have with your child and with your person is so precious, right? It's so precious, and you can't hurry children, you can't hurry them. You don't want to rush them, you want to let them kind of give their time to play and be who they are. But I've really learned kind of some things about that from you, you know. Um I also learned that it's okay when you're very headstrong because when you were a little kid, you were were very headstrong and determined. And I knew at the time, and other mothers could relate to this, that will serve you well when you're an adult. And I think it does serve you well. So I I really and I've learned to really be a better person. I think when you have kids, no matter how you have them, it does make you a better person. Because you see the world differently, you have a better perspective. I shouldn't have the patience right now. No, I'm I'm I'm not saying this to encourage you. No, no, no, no, no.

Dani Oskam 9:05

I I don't I didn't take it that way. I just think about having kids right now and it's terrible. No, I I know, and that's I just I feel like uh because having kids is I think it should be s it has to be a choice and you have to to want it and obviously it the way that it should be done is you should give your kids unconditional love and time. And I just I feel like that's and also I the patience that is involved with that.

Judy Oskam 9:37

Yeah, but when that little person comes into your world, it's something that you want to do. Everything changes, you know, it just just kind of rock your world. Well, anyway, I just thought it would be fun to get on here and feature you a little bit for for Mother's Day because you actually were the one who made me a mother. You're so welcome. You actually please I'll be here until Thursday. So I thought I would thank you and kind of uh tell you that I'm proud of you and I'm proud of the person. I do look at you and think, who is this woman? This person is a grown-up person now. How did that happen? Because I still see you as that little bitty child, little bitty baby, you know? And I guess my mom, who's in the other room now, because Danny and I were sitting on the porch at my mother's house and she's 94. So maybe she sees me as that little person too. I don't know. It's just weird how the world works, you know.

Dani Oskam 10:40

I feel like if you have kids, you always they're always your babies.

Judy Oskam 10:44

They are, and have them for life. So know that that you have them for life. But you are a dog person, so what now your dogs are my babies? Yeah, I live. Yes.

Dani Oskam 10:58

I birthed them myself. Okay, okay, they did. They're my babies, yes.

Judy Oskam 11:02

Well, it's just it's been fun. It's been a fun ride, and I hope to, you know, I don't know. You just kind of made me a mom, so I thought on Mother's Day I should feature you. Talk to your favorite kid.

Dani Oskam 11:15

Well, everybody mothers, they have multiple favorites, right? Do they I I've heard that some mothers openly say that they have favorite kids. And that's a little messed up.

Judy Oskam 11:28

No, I just think you ever individual, right? You're so individual and you're both so unique. And um, you know, we were just we were we got lucky twice. We were twice blessed, if you will, and you know, it's it's been a great ride.

Dani Oskam 11:46

Well, you got you know lucky once, and you know, it made you want to get the second one, and maybe the second one is good as first one, but that's okay.

Judy Oskam 11:53

That's what sisters say, right? But anyway, we're we're just so proud of you and excited to to I'm excited to be your mom.

Dani Oskam 12:02

So anyway, I'm excited that you're my mom because you know there's there were a lot of options. Yes, you know, there are lots of ways that it could have turned out, so yeah, I feel like we're also very lucky. Yeah.

Judy Oskam 12:15

So well, we'll see if Jess will talk to me now and we'll see how that goes. So okay. Thank you, babe. Love you. Thank you, love you, love you. Well, I'm glad you could join me, and I wanted to sort of flip the tables a little bit on Mother's Day. Okay, is that okay with you? Yeah, yeah, 100%. Let's go. Okay, okay. Well, again, you're you're in California, you're a few states away from me, and I miss you. I miss you too. Yeah, but I thought on Mother's Day, you know how Mother's Day everyone says, Oh, mothers are so great, they do all this stuff, and thank you, mothers, for this. Well, I want to flip that and thank you and Danny for being who you are and tell you what I've learned from you. Does that sound okay? Yeah, that's cute. Okay, well, a little bit different, right? Yeah. So well, I feel like two kids are what make moms moms, you know. Well, exactly. And that's I started with Danny on that because I said, you actually made me a mom and you made me a mom. I didn't really know that I would be a mom. I wasn't sure if I was gonna be a mom, you know. So I thought I would kind of tell you what I've learned from you, and you're open to ask questions, or we could just kind of have a conversation about that. So uh again, Mother's Day, you know, and I'm talking to you in grandma's house, and grandma's in the other room, and she's 94. So yes, I know we used to have a little golden girl situation.

Jess Oskam 13:49

I miss you too.

Judy Oskam 13:51

Yeah, a little three generation vibe. That's right. It was really fun. Well, yeah, yeah. I that was really fun when you were going to school and and well, after you went to school, so that was that was cool. Yeah, my early 20s, you know. Yeah, you're still not too far in your 20s.

Jess Oskam 14:09

I'm in my mid-20s. I'm in my mid-20s, you know. I know, I know.

Judy Oskam 14:12

Well, and I think back, and that's part of what kind of I had the conversation with Dani as well. But I still think of you guys as babies, but then I look at you and I think, you're women, you're on your own. How does that happen? I mean, what happens with all that?

Jess Oskam 14:29

I don't know. It just I guess it's kind of like time flies because actually I had the same realization recently. So this past weekend, Michael and I went to his sister's place to help with the kids. Her husband was out of town, and so she's need a little bit more help, you know. Two kids under the age of well, one's three and one's five. They're just kind of like, you know, running about everywhere. Boys, kids. Yes, and boys, um, very energetic boys. And it just like made me think more about like, you know, how there's really no rule book when it comes to parenting. Because I don't know if you remember this, but anytime I was babysitting, you'd always be like, this is really good birth control, because it really puts you in the shoes of like, you know, raising kids or like like dealing with kids, you know. And so it was Michael and I together, and it just reminded me that, like, yeah, there's like no rule book for what to do, X, Y, Z, or like how to go about certain things. It's all kind of like you just decide. So, like, for example, if I'm helping his nephew with homework and he's like, Well, I don't understand this. How do you do this? Or what happens with this and this? You kind of just have to like come up with it on the spot. And so it kind of just made me think about how like growing up, I really thought that you and dad were kind of like this, these like all-knowing beings, all honestly. Like, you know, you grow up with parents, you yes, you think that they like know everything and because they like they're talking to you about stuff, you know. And it's not that say that like you weren't candid about like, well, I don't know about this or that, but it just kind of felt like parents are these like like security blankets they like have all this stuff figured out, but you know, as you you get older, you're kind of like, Oh, this is their first time in life, too. This is like they're still figuring things out as well. And so I guess they kind of had like a similar epiphany when you saw when you were with the kids, yes. Yes, yeah, it kind of just made me like think about it a little bit more, like, oh my gosh, like I know.

Judy Oskam 16:12

Well, and sometimes yeah, you sometimes your dad and I would get together and say, Well, what do you think about this? And you said this, and I said this, and we didn't won't know what we were doing, you know. So and I waited a long time, you know. We tried to have kids before, and I talked about that with Dani a little bit, but tried to have that. So I was like 40 when I had Dani, when I got Dani, and then I was a couple years older when I got you.

Jess Oskam 16:37

So I figure how did I do have I have a question about that actually, because I I I bring that up in conversation actually quite frequently. Sometimes I'm like, yeah, my mother and father really chose to have my sister and I like they were married for a whole 18 years ago. 18 years, too. Wild span of life before deciding to have kids and like really making an intentional choice to have kids too. Um and so, like, like how do you feel? Like, do you think like how do you think the 18 years played into that decision or like changed it maybe, or like what what was going through your head back then? Because obviously, like two different, very different lifestyles lived, you know?

Judy Oskam 17:14

Exactly. Well, and again, all we had to think about was ourselves and career. And you know, I did dip in and out of you know, fertility and trying to have kids and everything, and we'd try a little bit and move on, and then you know, we'd just keep moving forward, and then time started coming at me, and then the time to make a decision, and then I think we got to a place where we were more settled, and I think that was the thing when we were together. Uh, we were sort of just kind of exploring new options in our careers and really kind of understanding how we work together and live together. Um, but yeah, I mean, I can't really imagine my life without kids. And I mentioned this to your sister earlier, but can't really, I always kind of thought we would have kids, but then we had a good 18 years. So I guess we we had a lot of fun. We traveled as much as we could. We didn't have a dime, we didn't have enough money really back then, but we did as much as we could, thinking that we might as well do it. So I always tell people go when you can, travel when you can, even you don't have to travel luxuriously, you just can do things and take action and do things, right? Um, yeah. So we kind of had a really good, but I think what we built was a really good solid foundation, you know. And I joke and I tell your dad that I'm his trophy wife.

Jess Oskam 18:44

So I yes, no, I remember that that I remember growing up with that joke all the time. It was the only joke I had, right? What is what is yall's age difference again? Like, is he a year older than you?

Judy Oskam 18:56

Yeah, I want to I don't want to give away my age, my audience doesn't need to know, but just the age difference is all I'm asking. Dad's like a year and a half, two years older than me. A year and a half.

Jess Oskam 19:05

Okay, okay. Because I could never remember what the the difference is. Well, because what I'm trying to think about, like I I only know your birthday year. I don't know his, so I'm always trying to guess what his year. Yes.

Judy Oskam 19:15

We won't give away the year in this conversation.

Jess Oskam 19:17

Oh no, I was just curious because I don't I just couldn't remember.

Judy Oskam 19:20

Yeah, yeah. Well, and you know, we met in college and everything, so that was kind of fun. So yeah, it was just kind of interesting. And then when we did decide, you know, we just we just dove in and then we made it a mission, and that's kind of you know, we focused really, and we weren't really sure about adopting a second kid, and then we decided to at the last minute. We just thought, well, we you know, yeah, I don't know, you know, we were trying to get it right the second time. I don't know.

Jess Oskam 19:50

Yeah, you know, the odds are a little higher. I know.

Judy Oskam 19:54

Well, and I think too, what I've learned from you, and I'll tell you, I have learned to be more creative and to really sort of be kind of more into who I am. And I really appreciate that because I have seen you really dive into your creativity and your crafts and your art artistry and your fashion design and all of that. And and I really, you know, you really inspire me to to really take some of those chances, you know.

Jess Oskam 20:28

Well, I love that. Well, funny enough you say that because it all goes back to when my mother made the decision to give me the tools to be creative. Like, I remember growing up always like hearing, I don't remember who I heard this from. Maybe it was you, maybe it was someone else. But when someone was like, when people would ask you, like, how do you like help with your daughter's creativity or like things like that? I remember you saying that. I asked your art teacher that. Yes, I remember you talking about that, or someone telling me that like you had asked them, and she had said, like, oh, you just need to keep giving her the tools to like work it, yeah, work with it.

Judy Oskam 21:02

So yeah, yeah, because you were in like kindergarten and and we saw the how artistic you were, and I remember asking your art teacher, Mrs. Camp, I think her name was, and I remember asking her, gosh, what do I do? How do I keep because I don't consider myself creative in that way, creative thinking in other ways, but I don't consider myself artistic or anything. And she said, You just got to keep putting the tools in front of her, giving her crayons, giving her paper, pens, paint, you know. So and then you're into all these other stuff, fabrics and all kinds of stuff.

Jess Oskam 21:40

And well, it just goes to show, you know, that art spans a lot of different topics and categories. So who's to say that you're the only one saying that you're not an artist in your own? Because I think that editing to a certain extent is in art form as well. You have an idea, and in my mind, art is a problem solution. In terms of creativity, that's how it's measured, right? So your problem is you want to get this message across, and your solution is adding together your voice and your words. And so who's not to say that that's not creative in a way?

Judy Oskam 22:12

Sure, sure, sure. Well, and and ideas, I know the ideas are there, so I know that's a big deal. But yeah, I just think I think that's that's one thing that's one of many things. And I think you um you really have helped me be a better um what's the word to be a better listener and a better communicator. Because you've kind of called me on things and I've had to answer, you know.

Jess Oskam 22:41

Yeah, I feel like I feel like that was brought on though, because specifically, I think there was like like us living together as roommates rather than just a mother-daughter relationship, kind of was the catalyst for that type of conversation. Oh, maybe I think personally. Like maybe you experienced that when I was younger, but for me and my perspective, I feel like us living together like that really changed the dynamic in terms of our communication and our relationship too, because you know, we have the added layer of like we're living in this house together. It's neither of our houses. And so we are kind of having it on an equal playing, yeah, an equal playing field, you know. Yeah.

Judy Oskam 23:20

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think too, and this is what I want to thank you for too. I want to thank you for, I feel like uh you are, and it's I don't know, it's hard to do because it's hard for me to do to see you as obviously I see you as a person, you know, and a woman and independent from me and not my baby child and all that stuff. But I feel like you you really try and see people as people and who they are. And I really think you give me a little credit for that, not not credit for that, but you see, you see me as more of a person than just a mom. I guess I don't know how to even say that.

Jess Oskam 24:03

Yeah, but I I mean I see what you mean. But honestly, I think you do most of the legwork there, if I'm being frank. Like every person that I have talked to that has interacted with you or knows you aside from me has raved about your creativity, how easy you are to talk to, how like like so many amazing things. And so I think simply because of who you are as a person, that has made it easy for me to see you as an individual person rather than solely as my mom.

Judy Oskam 24:28

Separate from me, though. I think you see me separate from you, and I see you as separate in the world. You know, it's not that we look alike or anything, but it's like, you know what I mean? We're twins, we're not twins, it's because you're adopted, you know. I'm an adopted mother. But but I think I think, you know, I think, and there's that saying, and you mentioned it earlier when we were talking about what's that that card that I've seen a lot. Oh, she's just a girl living life the first time or something.

Jess Oskam 24:56

Yeah, just a girl, yeah, living, yeah.

Judy Oskam 24:58

Just a girl. And I that has really kind of helped. I feel like you see people like that. And I'm even trying to see my mom like that. This is the first time she's gone through this before. This is, and I've said this to you and and Dani before is well, this is the first time I've been a mother of a 27-year-old, 26-year-old, 25-year-old. Yeah. You know, I've never done this before either. So there's the first time there, but anyway.

Jess Oskam 25:27

Sometimes I think it's like the the mundane things though that remind you of this. Like I remember last time when I went when I was back in Texas, actually, something that like kind of made me realize that about grandmother. Like, obviously, I do see her as her own person, but like, you know, like it just like brings it to the forefront, this like mundane little thing. I saw a video that was talking about different sleep positions and why people find them comfy, and because it like alleviates certain tension or stress in certain areas. Um, not that like you're stressed out, but like it just has to do with like settling the body. And like it was like a whole like a PT person talking about it. I digress. Um, and so I do this one position where I keep one leg straight and the other leg is bent almost like a four. Like I'm making a four with my legs. And that is really no, it's it's like like this. Like, okay. It's as if I were just sitting, like a pretzel. Yeah, like that. Like I sit, but then I just lay down like that. And it like it has to do with like something with tensions and like stress or something like that. Like it just really eases the body. It's kind of like if you're laying on your side, you need to have your knees like slightly apart. Yeah. So you put a pillow in between. And that like for some reason helps your body not feel as compressed. It's kind of the same thing, anyway. So I watch this video and I'm like, well, I kind of relate to that because like that's like I do that a lot, and that's why I do it. You know, it's very interesting. So I like grab onto that bit of information. And so when I was at grandma's house with you recently, I saw her getting cozy for bed. You know, I went to go stay goodnight and she was laying in that position too. And I was like, wow, she does the exact same thing as me. I know in that wild. Sometimes it's just like the really mundane things that like bring you back. Yeah, simple things.

Judy Oskam 26:59

Like, yeah, just a girl too, you know. I know, I know, just a girl. Well, I know it's Mother's Day, and I just wanted I just wanted to share. Is there anything you want to share about the mother-daughter thing? I mean, since we're doing this, and I'm so glad that you guys decided to do this because that we've talked about it before. We've just never done it, you know? Yeah. Oh, is there anything that I personally want to share?

Jess Oskam 27:26

I mean I'm trying to think if there's anything like obviously there's like the like very basic, like, thank you so much. I love you. I'm not look I'm not fishing. That type of stuff. No, no, no. Yeah, but like, like, I don't know, it it is just it's really interesting. I think too specifically it's very interesting, you know, being adopted. Uh you you you when you had had when you adopted Danny and I originally, obviously, like your body didn't go through all of the changes that like other mothers go through. And so I always felt like that kind of adds an interesting dynamic to our relationship, you know, as mother and daughter, because sometimes like I think, I think this is a different type of topic, but sometimes I think like women, you know, they have like uh uh they don't know how they feel about like pregnancy and birth and all that stuff because their bodies go through through so many changes. And so like I've always kind of wondered like how you felt about like I remember you talking to Tia and T ia was like, Yeah, do you remember when you had to wear like a diaper after giving birth? And you're like, No, I've never done that. Like, what are you talking about? Um, so like I don't know, I I think that that is like interesting different level, yeah.

Judy Oskam 28:43

Yeah, and it is different. And again, I don't know that I never knew I could love a person that much, and I can't imagine, even if you, you know, if I had you normal thing, yeah. I did the whole the bio way. I don't know that I could love you little human beings anymore. I just can't imagine. I think my heart might explode or something. I don't know. I I don't know what that's like, you know. Um, I guess I never really thought about that. I had to have my own bio kit or anything for some reason. Um, but yeah, I I don't know. I I just think it's odd. I I do wish I could help you guys with health issues and tell you and you know, genetically more about your future, but um, I just there's no connection there, you know.

Jess Oskam 29:38

Yeah, I I feel like that's kind of neither here nor there. I feel like there's a lot of advances in science and stuff like that. So if we just need to like test or something, sure. We would be fine. Like that's not really a concern. But I think if anything, like it kind of I guess what I was trying to say earlier or like ask about earlier was just that because we don't have um like biologically speaking, baseline of relationship, not relationship, but like connection in terms of like similarities and things like that. Like, how how would you say that's prompted? Because obviously, like not obviously, but when people don't have certain things, they lean on other things. So obviously, like you and I connect more intellectually or like emotionally, maybe relying on that as our relationship built up, being mother and daughter. Because I feel like sometimes I'll do things and I'm like, that's very duty of me.

Judy Oskam 30:28

Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, nature nurture nurture, right? Nature nurture. There's so much there, but you're such a hugger and such a, you know, you're a very physical kid, if you will. So that's that was fun. You always were very, you know, huggy, I guess, whereas Dani not so much so. So I don't I I just I can't, I I don't know. I I just don't know really how to explain that. Um because I don't know any different, right? I don't know any different.

Jess Oskam 31:01

It's the only way I know. I feel like some some of the habits that Dani and I have might also be due to us like being raised in an orphanage or I had a foster family for a good chunk of my time in China. So I feel like maybe going from orphanage to foster home kind of made me more of a touchy-feely person because I was getting held more. I was like, you know, and so like having without and then suddenly having it kind of like told me this is what I need, you know. Right. And so I think maybe that kind of plays a role into it too. Same like how when I was first adopted, like I didn't really like dad because and it's funny, like I did have a foster dad in the family dynamic, but I don't think I was around a lot of other men. So obviously, like gaining that trust and relationship with a man I wasn't as used to. And so that's kind of why it wasn't like immediately like, okay, dad. I know, I know because of that. Even with like school teachers, I you know, I remember growing up being well.

Judy Oskam 31:54

Remember, remember when remember when we did swimming lessons, you would not want to have a male swim teacher. I had to switch and get you a female swim teacher. So sorry, I know I just I did, it was no problem, but I had to say, uh, we need another teacher, please. Uh yeah, but you were little, and I think I I just think culturally you were probably held a lot by your foster mother, and um, and there was a five-year-old uh older sister in the household. So I think you you had some different experiences, you know.

Jess Oskam 32:33

Um yeah, but but yeah, that girl was actually my foster mother's granddaughter. I know, I know.

Foster Family Love And The Red Thread

Judy Oskam 32:39

Yeah, so that that was also an interesting dynamic, too. Yeah, yeah. Well, because yeah, and and the the mother was in there as well. So it was the grandmother, mother, and the and her daughter, and then you were the foster child. But yeah, that was, I mean, that was the true boy. That was really one of the most emotional days of my life, is when we went back with you. Uh, when we went back, when we just adopted you, and we went back to see the foster family because that foster family had cared for you. And I thought that is the true level of love right there. And I remember hugging that woman, your foster mother. And I just thought that it was like a mother moment. You talk about a mother moment, it was just like she was crying, I was crying, you were looking at us like, what's going on here? You know, but it was just so there was so much emotional energy in that room. I will never forget that. And I was so thankful for that woman for for taking care of you, you know. Anyway, I was so thankful for her. And you know, you know, your dad just said, honey, sit down, sit down, because he knew I should be sitting down. Yeah. Well, you know, he's got that harmony in him, so he just wants everyone to do it. He wants everyone, he was worried about me and he was worried. And and when we drove up, you're speaking of the power of motherhood. And if you don't want me to say anything, I won't, but if it was the power of of the mother child connection when we drove up to the um the your foster family's apartment, and again, we had only had you for a couple days. This is in China, and we drove up, and there we were in a cab, and there was a a group of um old grandmas sitting on the small stools, the little bitty stools, and I don't know how they stood up, but they could. And they were sitting down there, and I remember because they all knew you, so we got out of the cab and the grandmas just came and grabbed you. And as a as a new mom, but that heart string, that red thread, that invisible thread was tied from me to those women, to you, to your foster mother, to your bio mother, because intuitively I knew no, let you go. Those women love you. Your dad right away said, Honey, get her, don't don't let her go. I remember you telling me this, yeah. And he was protective, right? He was protective. I just knew that I had to let the world kind of play out there. It was just a surreal, surreal experience. But um, but they all grabbed you, passed you around, said, Hey, how you doing? in Chinese, you know, I didn't know what they were saying, but it was like, hey, yeah, whatever. And then and then we walked up and saw your you know, foster family. So it was uh it was a super emotional day.

Jess Oskam 35:56

And it was kind of a wild timeline.

Judy Oskam 35:59

It was a wild timeline. And the you know, the same with Danny, because we had we had put in our all the adoption process that we went through, and then we got a call, and we had to be in China in two weeks and for Dani, and we had two weeks' notice to get there. And we were actually in Holland with the Texas Tech Soccer team, and when they called us on a bus, and this was before the good cell phone stuff, you know. Yeah, the big brick. So we had the brick, and we had to, you know, hurriedly get arrangements and do travel and everything. So again, but once you know, the match, you tell talk about the power of of I don't know, the mother-daughter connection, but the photo when we got the photo when we were matched, and that photo I wore, both of yours I wore in a in a name card, you know, like an ID card. I had it in there or an ID card at work, and I had your pictures in there. I had first I had Dani's and I was walking around, and so every time someone would ask about it, I would flip the picture, you know. My daughter, this is my daughter. But it was like we were already connected from that first match. And again, you and I have talked about this. How did we ever get matched? How did the match happen?

Jess Oskam 37:14

I personally don't know how the agency decided to do things, but I have my own theories about how they match children with their parents. I mean, in Chinese culture, at least, like oftentimes women and men would get matched for romantic matches, like with their star signs, with their birthdays, like kind of those types of things. And so I always thought that it's not a coincidence that everyone in our family is a water sign. Um, because like we would all get like be comfortable with one another. And so I personally think that like when they saw that you and Dad were both water signs, that they were just kind of like, they need to have water sign daughters. Maybe it's like I don't that's kind of like evidence to me, if you so to speak, that like there was an intentional intentionality that had to do with our birthdays.

Judy Oskam 37:59

Yeah, it could be, it could be, but you know, whatever it was, it worked. It just worked beautifully. So I just thought, you know, I thought get you on the podcast and you know, get you on the show and see if we can chat about a little bit and see what see what the audience wants.

Jess Oskam 38:18

I always like to say that um I always like to say that in every lifetime I think that you're my mother.

Closing Reflection 

Judy Oskam 38:26

So I love that. Thank you. I love that. I love that. And I'm I'm here for you. So, you know, whatever, whatever you want to do, I'm here. I'm here for the ride. You know that. Yeah. Love you. Love you, love you, babe. Love you. As I think about our conversations, I'm reminded of the ancient Chinese belief in the red thread of fate, an invisible thread that connects the people who are meant to find one another. For my journey to motherhood, it started with uncertainty, but adoption became the path that brought our lives together. Danny and Jess didn't just become part of my story. They helped reshape it. Well, maybe we all have red threads in our lives the people, the moments, the unexpected connections that change us in ways that we never imagined. Well, thanks for listening to Stories of Change and Creativity. I'm Judy Oskam.