Nov. 18, 2025
Why Celebration Is Essential: Rituals, Meaning, and Maya Wisdom with Dr. R. Jon McGee
What if celebration isn’t something “extra,” but something essential to living a meaningful, connected life? If you're like me, I'm always looking for reasons to celebrate and enjoy life.
In this episode of Stories of Change and Creativity, I sit down with Dr. R. Jon McGee—anthropologist, author, and longtime Texas State University professor—at the Live Oak Podcast Studio to explore the topic of celebration.
For more than forty years, Dr. McGee lived with and learned from Maya communities in southern Mexico. He explained how rituals create order in chaotic times and help people navigate change.
Inside Maya Ritual Life
Professor McGee takes us inside ceremonies shaped by rainforest ecosystems and centuries of tradition—
- incense drifting
- prayers spoken in a distinct ritual voice
- balché, a fermented mead used to open a sacred, altered state
He reveals how metaphors woven into healing incantations—birds, winds, heat, and fever—carry cultural memory and symbolic meaning.
Why Rituals Matter in Our Everyday Lives
From Christmas and communion to Thanksgiving tables and graduation, Professor McGee helps us see how our own traditions carry histories and stories forward. These familiar symbols—colors, foods, candles, music—are anchors that help us mark time and feel connected.
How to Bring More Celebration Into Your Life
If you’re craving more meaning, we discuss some practical ways to create moments of celebration:
- Gather the people who matter most
- Choose symbols your group already loves
- Engage all five senses
- Make space for recognition and storytelling
- Keep it small—simple gestures can make a big difference
How do you celebrate? I’d love to hear.
If you enjoyed this episode subscribe, share with a friend who might need to celebrate more often, and leave a review. Tell me the one ritual you’d never give up.
Learn more about Dr. R. Jon McGee here.
Recorded at Live Oak Studios on the campus of Texas State University.
Hi Friend - Thanks for listening!
Check out my TEDx talk. Why you should take action - then figure it out.
00:00 - Framing Celebration As A Human Need
00:40 - Meet Dr. Jon McGee
03:42 - First Encounters In A Maya Community
05:20 - Language, Humor, And Being Welcomed
06:45 - What Rituals Do For People
08:00 - Farming, Healing, And Deep Symbolism
10:25 - Teaching Ritual Origins And Student Reactions
12:05 - Inside A Rainforest Ceremony
15:10 - Altered States And Sacred Euphoria
17:20 - Secular Rituals And Commencement Gaps
19:00 - Customs That Grow Organically
21:15 - Tourism, Economy, And Ritual Decline
24:00 - Culture Change, Loss, And Preservation
26:00 - How To Add Celebration To Life
28:10 - Symbols, Senses, And Shared Meaning
31:00 - Closing Reflections And Holiday Intentions
WEBVTT
00:00:02.879 --> 00:00:05.440
Welcome to Stories of Change and Creativity.
00:00:05.440 --> 00:00:12.000
I'm Judy Oskam, a professor in the School of Journalism and Mass Communication at Texas State University.
00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:13.679
I'm really glad you're here.
00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:24.640
And I want to share with you that the older I get, the more I've come to understand that celebration isn't only something we do, it's something we need.
00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:36.960
It's found not only in life's biggest achievements, which we always tend to recognize, but also in the small, everyday, daily rituals that anchor our identity.
00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:40.560
And that idea brings us to today's conversation.
00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:45.039
On this episode, I'm exploring this deeper truth with Dr.
00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:46.399
Jon McGee.
00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:47.039
Dr.
00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:52.000
McGee is an anthropologist and professor at Texas State University.
00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:54.560
And for more than 40 years, Dr.
00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:59.200
McGee has studied Maya communities in southern Mexico.
00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:07.040
Through his research on ritual and ceremony, he's discovered that celebration is more than an event.
00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:11.599
It's a way people understand change and make meaning.
00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:22.000
Well, together we'll explore how rituals evolve and why it's important for us to find ways to celebrate in our own daily lives.
00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:24.640
I hope you enjoy our conversation.
00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:29.680
This is my 41st year at Texas State.
00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:32.959
I came in, I think it was 1985.
00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:40.560
And most of my career I've worked with Maya in southern Mexico.
00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:45.439
And I lived in a community of people who were not Christian.
00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:57.680
And so I spent about the first decade of my work studying their rituals and mythology and how that fit into other aspects of their society.
00:01:58.159 --> 00:02:00.799
Well, what led you down there in the first place?
00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:05.840
Well, I have a diverse religious background.
00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:12.080
My mother was Mennonite, my father was Episcopalian via Catholicism.
00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:32.719
I was baptized by a Presbyterian minister, and you know, so I had a lot of re I grew up being interested in religion and did a master's thesis looking at the uh rich faith healing rituals of evangelical in evangelical churches.
00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:50.479
And then just when I was working on my PhD, I actually discovered the folks uh that I worked with by accident and just fell into that opportunity, and I worked with them for over 30 years.
00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:51.439
Oh my gosh.
00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:52.159
Oh my gosh.
00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:54.319
Yeah, it's very rewarding.
00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:59.120
Well, and you've gotten to know them and go back, and you know them by name.
00:02:59.120 --> 00:02:59.439
Yeah.
00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:02.960
And so you you've kind of lived with them as family.
00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:03.520
Right.
00:03:03.520 --> 00:03:04.319
Yeah.
00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:07.599
And I miss them a great deal now because I can't.
00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:18.240
I mean, once I grew up, right, and married, started a family, my ability to spend a lot of time down there was, you know, curtailed a bit.
00:03:18.240 --> 00:03:25.520
But I I communicate with people in this community now by WhatsApp, which shows you the technology.
00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:25.840
Yeah.
00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:26.400
Yeah.
00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:27.039
Yeah.
00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:27.759
Yeah.
00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:34.560
Well, and when you first started going down there, what was it that struck you uh uh about the differences?
00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:42.319
And this is a broad question between the culture you grew up in and the culture that you were visiting and living in?
00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:47.039
I think what attracted me was it was so completely different.
00:03:47.039 --> 00:04:05.919
I grew up in the Midwest, you know, just Midwestern kid, I was a professor's son, you know, always grew up wanting to be an anthropologist, and um, but didn't think too much about the future.
00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:18.639
And so when I discovered these people, and um it this is l in the rainforest at the time I started working, no electricity, no roads, it was pretty primitive.
00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:20.639
And I I was in heaven.
00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:22.240
That was just glorious for me.
00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:24.319
It was like extended camping.
00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:25.360
Yeah, yeah.
00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:34.399
And and when you first stumbled into this life, because it really is their life, and and did did they let you in?
00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:36.399
And were you were you welcomed?
00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:37.120
Yes.
00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:40.240
Uh they were very gracious.
00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:55.680
Um and I I think I was the community entertainment for a long time because I was learning Maya while I was there, and so the language mistakes I would make, they thought were hilarious.
00:04:55.680 --> 00:05:05.360
Uh the Maya are big on punning, and my name, John, which is Juan in Spanish, that's like the Maya word for partridge.
00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:18.800
And so endless jokes about you know my name and and then when I I became conversant enough in Maya, then I started making mistakes on purpose just to entertain.
00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:21.439
So I was sort of the village goof, I think.
00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:32.480
Well, and and as you as you lived your life down there, what what rituals or celebrations did you did you see and did you experience?
00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:36.959
Because I I want to kind of get into celebration and where does it come from?
00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:41.519
Why do we have a need and a desire to celebrate?
00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:51.279
Well, I think human beings make we make up rituals, personal rituals, just to help organize our days.
00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:56.240
I mean, if you think about when you wake up, what are the first things you do?
00:05:56.240 --> 00:06:00.399
You know, you make a cup of coffee, you get in the shower, whatever.
00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:18.879
You know, we so we organize our days with little personal rituals, but on a larger scale, I think ceremony helps us make sense of the world and our place in it, and our place in the larger society.
00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:26.800
And in the case of the Maya, the more I learned about their rituals, the more I discovered.
00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:28.399
They were rainforest farmers.
00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:37.439
And so a lot of the rituals, about half the rituals dealt with agriculture, and the other half dealt with health and healing.
00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:49.439
And I discovered, you know, the more I learned was that a lot of the rituals were tailored into environmental changes in the forest around us.
00:06:49.439 --> 00:07:16.160
And the healing ritual, you know, in the absence of Western-style medical care, they had a very elaborate uh set of healing rituals revolving around like magical incantations that were very deeply metaphorical, you know, referring, you might be talking about a bird in your incantation, but it refers to a fever, you know.
00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:30.000
And so this depth of symbolism that they were using was something that just really surprised me when I when I first started, because I didn't recognize that in our own society.
00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:51.920
And and you know, now I think I I have a better understanding about rituals that we're familiar with in our own culture, you know, Christmas, Thanksgiving, you know, whatever, um, that those have an equal depth of symbolism to them.
00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:56.959
It's just that we often don't recognize where those symbols come from.
00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:03.360
Well, and how oh, through the years you've been teaching students about those things.
00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:16.399
And what's been the reaction when you sort of explain the history or the lore behind some of the traditions that you've experienced and that you've seen, but how do you tie it together so that they understand it?
00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:17.199
Right.
00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:26.879
When I'm talking about the Maya, I've I've found in general that students are are interested and you know they they want to know more about that.
00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:42.320
But if I talk about the the origin of you know Western ritual or Christian ritual, they're often very surprised about where a lot of Christian ritual practice comes from.
00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:46.320
And so, you know, they're they're simply not familiar with it.
00:08:46.320 --> 00:09:18.559
And so you know, um equally interested, I think, but also if if the roots of a ceremony that they are familiar with and have practiced in their own churches a lot are different from, say, what they learned in Bible school or yeah, Bible study, then I let me say I think a university education is supposed to challenge people and broaden your horizons.
00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:25.440
So um some students like that challenge, others feel threatened by it.
00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:25.919
Sure.
00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:27.919
Yeah, and so sure.
00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:32.960
I I don't proselytize in class, I just you know say have an open mind.
00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:34.240
Sure, sure.
00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:45.840
Well, if you if you if you could take us back to to one of the first uh ceremonies that you've seen, can you describe that scene for us when you're out there and and in the rainforest?
00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:48.000
Uh can you describe what that was like?
00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:48.960
Sure.
00:09:49.200 --> 00:10:02.799
Um first off, I I could not I didn't understand half of what was going on because men pray in a special ritual.
00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:05.759
It's a high-pitched, nasalized voice.
00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:08.799
It's different from your everyday speaking voice.
00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:19.600
And so I knew the layout of the ritual space and where I was supposed to sit and what I wasn't supposed to step over, things like that.
00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:29.919
But to try to follow, it was difficult to follow what was going on and why people were doing what they were doing when they were doing it.
00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:46.720
So at one point they're burning incense in these uh incense burners that have faces modeled on them, which represent they're sort of portals through which the deities receive their offerings.
00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:59.360
Um, they brew, one thing that really stood out is they brew a ritual mead, mildly alcoholic, but they brew, they ferment this called balce.
00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:11.840
And over the course of many rituals, they they've brewed this dugout canoe full of balce, and the men drink balce.
00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:18.879
You know, they have these drinking gourds, and the host of the ritual hands you a drinking gourd, and you're just supposed to chug it.
00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:22.480
Uh, you don't sit there and sip it, you know, you chug it.
00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:28.879
And so everybody around me is getting drunk during this ritual.
00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:38.960
And I I later learned it's supposed to ritually purify you, and in that state, you can hear the gods talking to you, and you know, things happen.
00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:50.159
But because just of my own background, you know, Northern European background, Europeans have a higher tolerance for alcohol than Native Americans.
00:11:50.159 --> 00:12:01.759
And so I'd be drinking gourdfuls of balce and sort of feel like I had some Nyquil, whereas the people around me, you know, are are getting stronger impact.
00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:04.240
Yeah, much, much that's a good way to put it.
00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:06.080
Yeah, much stronger impact.
00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:16.559
And uh so that that really caught my attention because, you know, with a Mennonite mother, and that was very different from you know anything I had seen before.
00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:17.600
Sure, sure.
00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:19.200
Well, if we're fun, yeah.
00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:31.840
Well, if if we take that back and we look at our our rituals and traditions today, and people always encourage others to enjoy life and experience life.
00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:36.159
And how how do we how do we allow ourselves to celebrate?
00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:40.159
And how does it become part of who we are?
00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:44.960
Well, there it depends.
00:12:44.960 --> 00:13:02.399
If we're talking about religious rituals, most of the religions in the world with which I am familiar and I don't claim to know every single one, but many of them have some form of altered state of consciousness.
00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:09.200
And it doesn't necessarily involve, you know, chewing peyote or drinking something.
00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:32.159
It's because you can achieve an altered state of consciousness just through dancing, through drumming, and and so that you can in many and even in churches um in the United States, uh you can have people who create this euphoric or I would say create this euphoric state of mind.
00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:51.679
Um just through the uh singing and the dancing and the the activity during this uh church ceremony, um, which is typically defined as possession by the Holy Spirit.
00:13:51.679 --> 00:14:03.679
You know, and it feels wonderful, um and it's proof to them of the existence of the things they believe in, which is great, you know.
00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:10.879
I'm um nothing it nothing that I say here should be you know considered criticism.
00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:16.559
Um so the Maya, you know, drink balce.
00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:22.960
Some churches in the United States, you know, um like in Appalachia, they're very common.
00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:29.360
They're not very common, but that's probably where the largest concentration of them are.
00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:50.159
You know, people are possessed by the Holy Spirit, and it's it's proof to them, it's proof to the participants, or even those observing, that you know, the Holy Spirit can come down and possess you, and so your beliefs and practices are are the right ones.
00:14:50.159 --> 00:15:10.320
And I think you know, um that's a powerful thing, and it's different from secular rituals because I think of graduation ceremonies, you know, that um those don't impact people in the same way, right?
00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:13.519
Um which is too bad.
00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:21.200
I mean, if I wish like I've been to many, many commencements at Texas State, right?
00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:33.600
And I wish students I think students often don't internalize the significance of their achievement.
00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:52.480
You know, they people yeah, you don't have to wear a tux, but I see people in cut off shorts and flip-flops, you know, and um and they show up late, they're on their phones, and I'm saying, you know, this is a public recognition of your achievement.
00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:54.559
You should be proud of yourself, you know.
00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:58.960
You've you've done something that most people in the United States haven't done.
00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:14.720
So maybe if we had some ecstatic experience during our commencements, people would uh, you know, maybe parents take it more seriously, maybe, than the people who are uh who the ceremony is focused on.
00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:26.879
But some are wearing the shorts so they can jump in the river, which is a ritual that they are that the university is pushing really, and we have a river that runs through our campus.
00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:31.759
So it does turn into that type of a celebration at least.
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:48.960
So I think for the people who do that, that may be the most noteworthy part, you know, because in the sir in the ceremony, in the commencement ceremony, they're just, you know, people are sure flying across the stage or calling out names.
00:16:48.960 --> 00:17:00.159
And but if you with your friends, you know, and family watching on, you jump into the river at the end, that may be the most memorable thing to a lot of people.
00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:04.240
Well, and does that become does that become a celebration?
00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:05.440
Yes, absolutely.
00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:10.960
Yeah, sure.
00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:14.480
And what what are the components of a celebration?
00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:17.519
Uh it's must be a feeling.
00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:39.519
I I'm trying to analyze it, but you're the expert on rituals and uh well, I I could you know I think different people might come up with different components of what constitutes a celebration, but I think people need to feel there's something to be celebrated.
00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:53.279
And then they have a way which is it might be regional, it might be national, but accepted as you know a way to express your feelings about what you've done.
00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:58.160
And so I mean, jumping in the San Marcos River is a great one.
00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:00.960
Actually, they do that at Oxford when they graduate.
00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:01.440
Oh, wow.
00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:04.000
Only the river they're jumping in is much shallower.
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:06.720
So this is this is way safer.
00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:07.519
Wow.
00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:08.240
Wow.
00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:27.440
Um, yeah, so you know, you're and because it's the end of this ceremony and you're celebrating this achievement, you get to do something that you wouldn't ordinarily do, you know, and nobody cares.
00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:35.759
You can, you know, be fully clothed, jump in the river, and you know, and most people wouldn't do that in a normal day.
00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:36.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:40.240
So it's a marker of your of your achievement.
00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:43.200
Well, and is that what a celebration is?
00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:45.599
Is it a marker of time?
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:53.359
And how do people, how should people think about that based on their history and their personal family history?
00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:56.559
Should they, should they, does it help?
00:18:56.559 --> 00:18:57.599
Does it help?
00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:07.039
I'm asking for myself here, but does it help, would it help me to celebrate more and look back at my family history?
00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:14.799
What what would that do for me as a as a human trying to get through life, you know?
00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:31.039
Well, I think the celebration is an important component of marking an achievement, uh, some sort of achievement in your life, um, whether it's personal or with a group.
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:46.000
Uh, however, I'm not sure how much our society has today has customs to mark a lot of our achievements.
00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:53.200
And so, you know, you graduate from college, your parents take you out to dinner and say they're proud of you, you know, which is great.
00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:57.680
But define what a custom is.
00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:00.000
Um What's the difference between that?
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:08.640
Something that is recognized as an appropriate way to express yourself in certain circumstances.
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:15.359
I know I'm talking about a s a cultural custom, not just your personal routine.
00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:16.480
Sure.
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:24.640
Um so in San Marcos after at Texas State jumping in the river.
00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:28.960
Um and you I've seen, I've been here, you know, so long.
00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:35.920
I've seen I think jumping in the river grew fairly organically, right?
00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:40.640
Nobody said, hey, everybody, let's jump in the river to celebrate.
00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:48.000
So um people, I believe it's important, they tend to create their own.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:21:00.960
Um, maybe because in our society we don't have a lot of ways that we recognize to ex dancing would be one, you know, in celebration.
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:06.799
Um meals, ritual meals to celebrate events.
00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:15.680
Um but things like jumping in the re river, I think, grow up organically.
00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:19.440
They just start happening and become a custom.
00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:25.759
I have 50 years ago, 40 years ago, when I first came to campus, people weren't jumping in the river.
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:29.359
That's something that started maybe over the last 20 years.
00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:30.240
Sure.
00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:45.039
Um so also, I mean, we create these things, these customs to celebrate, and some of them can be really destructive or negative, you know.
00:21:45.039 --> 00:22:18.079
Uh your team wins the Super Bowl or the World Series, and people burn couches, you know, and so that typically will only happen after, you know, your city's team achieves this, and it's something that's grown up organically, you know, people don't normally pull couches out into the street and set them on fire, but that also has become a way of celebrating, you know.
00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:38.079
Um I put in a little plug for my son who was on the um Baylor basketball teams, he was a graduate assistant on their coaching staff the year they won the national championship.
00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:43.759
And you don't think of Baylor as being a particularly wild place, right?
00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:44.960
Or Waco.
00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:45.599
Yeah.
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:57.839
But the night they had, you know, won that championship, there were students out burning couches in the streets in Waco.
00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:07.440
You know, so this is a custom that's right, just grown up organically and just hope people don't hurt themselves, you know.
00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:21.279
Well, going back to kind of circling back to your time with the Maya, and how did you see those traditions change as they became more Western, if you would?
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:23.519
What what did you notice?
00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:41.200
Um, I started working, living there in 1980, and by about 1985, there was a real change in how people were supporting themselves.
00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:50.000
Um they originally for hundreds of years they've been rainforest farmers.
00:23:50.000 --> 00:24:13.599
But they also have a fairly distinctive appearance, and because they're not Christian, there is a basically, and they often live around ancient Maya ruins, so there is this mystique around them, uh, which they realized and they started selling stuff to tourists, um, like at these ruin sites.
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:21.119
And so if you're making and selling stuff to tourists, you can't be home preparing your fields.
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:31.599
And so there is a change in the economy, um, where people more and more started relying on the income they could earn from tourism.
00:24:31.599 --> 00:25:01.519
And what I saw was um, much to my um mean surprise, really, was that very quickly, um as the oldest generation of men died, the men I was hanging out with mostly, and their you know, sons and daughters took over, they very quickly dropped their former religious beliefs.
00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:08.400
They didn't convert to Christianity, they didn't convert to anything, they just quit celebrating those rituals.
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:17.519
And I realized the rituals were for the health of their fields, you know, and good harvests or for the health of their families.
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:25.599
And if you're not farming, you don't need all these rituals for the, you know, for a good harvest.
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:34.079
And if you have income to pay for medical care, which they recognized was effective, you don't need the other half of the rituals.
00:25:34.079 --> 00:26:00.079
And so basically, this change in their household economies propelled this the abandoning these religious traditions, which I mean, the earliest written records about these folks are from the 1790s, and in the 1790s they were doing the rituals that I saw when I first showed up.
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:03.599
So how long that had been going on, there's no way to know.
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:09.119
But for several hundred years at least, in the space of a couple of years, they just walked away.
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:10.000
Wow.
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:10.480
Yeah.
00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:12.799
They'll do things for tourists now.
00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:20.799
If tourists come, they'll put on a ceremony or something, but not for their own religious practices.
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:21.119
Yeah.
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:31.759
Well, and you've sort of you've tracked that whole thing, and you've just had such a focus on that particular um group of people.
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:32.480
Yeah.
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:35.759
Um, how does that make you feel after you see that?
00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:59.759
And oh part of me is sorry um that there have been so many changes, but one day when I was, you know, feeling sorry for myself, then I realized that, well, you know, American society isn't the same as it was in 1980, you know, when I started working down here.
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:01.440
We've changed just as much.
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:01.920
Right.
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:08.160
You know, um cultures change all the time for all sorts of reasons.
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:10.880
So why should they be any different?
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:16.799
So I just started documenting the changes and why I thought those were happening.
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:19.119
It's fascinating to me.
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:38.960
Yeah, at the same time, though, there's such rich symbolism in their stories and so many, you know, these therapeutic incantations and things, which I mean most lock and don't today adults are not literate.
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:46.319
And so if people don't remember these things, they're gone in a generation.
00:27:46.319 --> 00:28:01.759
So I'd be sorry to see them lose this, you know, what I consider a treasure of information, you know, that was a part of their culture before uh they started having a lot of contact with the outside.
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:04.160
There's no way to go back.
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:04.720
No.
00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:06.799
You can't turn the clock back, right?
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:07.200
No.
00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:08.000
Oh my god.
00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:12.240
But we don't need many blacksmiths, you know, anymore, though, now either.
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:14.960
So I mean, all cultures do this.
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:15.839
Yeah.
00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:21.920
Well, if someone wanted to put more celebration in their lives, what what would you recommend?
00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:24.400
Would you look back at history?
00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:34.079
Would you look back at um events or customs, or where would someone start if they wanted to increase the celebration in their lives?
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:45.039
I think ritual is is a good thing precisely for that purpose.
00:28:45.039 --> 00:29:00.000
Um to to you you would want to gather the people who met most to you and shared your ideas, you know, with you, because it's a group thing.
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:13.039
Um and I think the ritual has to reference something that is meaningful in your community.
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:17.039
Um, and that that could be lots of different things.
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:24.960
I I naturally gravitate towards religious rituals because that's what I have spent many years thinking about.
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:34.880
Uh but the Passover celebration, you know, they're often ritual, religious rituals are often recreations of religious stories.
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:46.160
Um and so if you have a community of devout believers, then those rituals are very meaningful to that group of people.
00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:51.920
Maybe less so for me who studies a wide variety of religions.
00:00:02.879 --> 00:00:05.440
00:00:05.440 --> 00:00:12.000
00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:13.679
00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:24.640
00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:36.960
00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:40.560
00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:45.039
00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:46.399
00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:47.039
00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:52.000
00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:54.560
00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:59.200
00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:07.040
00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:11.599
00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:22.000
00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:24.640
00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:29.680
00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:32.959
00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:40.560
00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:45.439
00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:57.680
00:01:58.159 --> 00:02:00.799
00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:05.840
00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:12.080
00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:32.719
00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:50.479
00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:51.439
00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:52.159
00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:54.319
00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:59.120
00:02:59.120 --> 00:02:59.439
00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:02.960
00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:03.520
00:03:03.520 --> 00:03:04.319
00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:07.599
00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:18.240
00:03:18.240 --> 00:03:25.520
00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:25.840
00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:26.400
00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:27.039
00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:27.759
00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:34.560
00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:42.319
00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:47.039
00:03:47.039 --> 00:04:05.919
00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:18.639
00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:20.639
00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:22.240
00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:24.319
00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:25.360
00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:34.399
00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:36.399
00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:37.120
00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:40.240
00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:55.680
00:04:55.680 --> 00:05:05.360
00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:18.800
00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:21.439
00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:32.480
00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:36.959
00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:41.519
00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:51.279
00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:56.240
00:05:56.240 --> 00:06:00.399
00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:18.879
00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:26.800
00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:28.399
00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:37.439
00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:49.439
00:06:49.439 --> 00:07:16.160
00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:30.000
00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:51.920
00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:56.959
00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:03.360
00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:16.399
00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:17.199
00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:26.879
00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:42.320
00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:46.320
00:08:46.320 --> 00:09:18.559
00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:25.440
00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:25.919
00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:27.919
00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:32.960
00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:34.240
00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:45.840
00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:48.000
00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:48.960
00:09:49.200 --> 00:10:02.799
00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:05.759
00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:08.799
00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:19.600
00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:29.919
00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:46.720
00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:59.360
00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:11.840
00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:18.879
00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:22.480
00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:28.879
00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:38.960
00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:50.159
00:11:50.159 --> 00:12:01.759
00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:04.240
00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:06.080
00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:16.559
00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:17.600
00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:19.200
00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:31.840
00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:36.159
00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:40.159
00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:44.960
00:12:44.960 --> 00:13:02.399
00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:09.200
00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:32.159
00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:51.679
00:13:51.679 --> 00:14:03.679
00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:10.879
00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:16.559
00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:22.960
00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:29.360
00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:50.159
00:14:50.159 --> 00:15:10.320
00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:13.519
00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:21.200
00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:33.600
00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:52.480
00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:54.559
00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:58.960
00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:14.720
00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:26.879
00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:31.759
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:48.960
00:16:48.960 --> 00:17:00.159
00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:04.240
00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:05.440
00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:10.960
00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:14.480
00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:17.519
00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:39.519
00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:53.279
00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:58.160
00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:00.960
00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:01.440
00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:04.000
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:06.720
00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:07.519
00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:08.240
00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:27.440
00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:35.759
00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:36.480
00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:40.240
00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:43.200
00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:45.599
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:53.359
00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:56.559
00:18:56.559 --> 00:18:57.599
00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:07.039
00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:14.799
00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:31.039
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:46.000
00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:53.200
00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:57.680
00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:00.000
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:08.640
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:15.359
00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:16.480
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:24.640
00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:28.960
00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:35.920
00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:40.640
00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:48.000
00:20:48.000 --> 00:21:00.960
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:06.799
00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:15.680
00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:19.440
00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:25.759
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:29.359
00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:30.240
00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:45.039
00:21:45.039 --> 00:22:18.079
00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:38.079
00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:43.759
00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:44.960
00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:45.599
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:57.839
00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:07.440
00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:21.279
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:23.519
00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:41.200
00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:50.000
00:23:50.000 --> 00:24:13.599
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:21.119
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:31.599
00:24:31.599 --> 00:25:01.519
00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:08.400
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:17.519
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:25.599
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:34.079
00:25:34.079 --> 00:26:00.079
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:03.599
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:09.119
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:10.000
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:10.480
00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:12.799
00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:20.799
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:21.119
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:31.759
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:32.480
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:35.759
00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:59.759
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:01.440
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:01.920
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:08.160
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:10.880
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:16.799
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:19.119
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:38.960
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:46.319
00:27:46.319 --> 00:28:01.759
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:04.160
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:04.720
00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:06.799
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:07.200
00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:08.000
00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:12.240
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:14.960
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:15.839
00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:21.920
00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:24.400
00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:34.079
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:45.039
00:28:45.039 --> 00:29:00.000
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:13.039
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:17.039
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:24.960
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:34.880
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:46.160
00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:51.920