What to Say When Someone You Love Is Dying: The Good Goodbye with Dr. Maureen Keeley

Judy Oskam: 0:00

Welcome to Stories of Change and Creativity. I'm Judy Oskam. This episode is about saying goodbye. The conversations we have when someone close to us is dying, and we know our time together is limited. If you're like me, I've had moments where I wished I'd said something a little differently, or I wish I'd said something sooner. In these moments, I've felt really unsure. And back when my dad was uh nearing the end several years ago, I reached out to my colleague, Dr. Maureen Keeley. She's a professor of interpersonal communication at Texas State University. Her research focuses on the final conversations we have with a loved one or someone we know nearing the end of life. Dr. Keeley, along with Dr. Julie Yingling, wrote the book The Good Goodbye, the Transformative Power of Conversation at the End of Life. And trust me, this book and their research can help you learn how to show up, know what to say, and how to live with fewer regrets afterwards. If you're caring for an aging parent, like I am with my brother, or someone nearing the end of life, this episode will give you a research-based lens for creating a good goodbye.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 1:34

I'm Dr. Maureen Keeley. I'm a professor at Texas State University. I've been here 31 years. And I have been I'm a professor of interpersonal communication, which means I teach about communication relationships. So I teach nonverbal and family and relational calm, and I even teach an end-of-life graduate course and communication end of life. Um, I've been doing this whole body of research for over two decades.

Judy Oskam: 2:00

Well, and you started that because you saw a gap, right?

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 2:06

I started because my mother was dying 20 years ago, 27 years ago.

Judy Oskam: 2:10

Wow.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 2:11

And um she was very private and quiet, and none of us knew if we were doing it right because these conversations that happen at the end of life, what I call final conversations, are done in private and they should be done in private. But we don't have any models. We didn't know what to say, what do people talk about? I I'm one of six children. I'm the youngest by five minutes. I've six six of us, I have an identical twin.

Judy Oskam: 2:35

Oh my gosh.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 2:36

Four minutes, I have an identical twin. And one of my older brothers said, Hey Maureen, Mom, said anything to you profound? And I go, What do you mean, Chris? He goes, I'm waiting to hear her life secrets or her advice that will change my life. And he goes, I just want this profound conversation. And I went, Oh, Chris, do you know mom loves you? Oh, yeah, yeah. So, do you know mom's proud of you? He said, Absolutely. I said, Can you imagine you're dying, you're scared, you're in pain. If you had to have a profound conversation for every person who walked through that door, you'd lock that door and not let anybody in because there's just one more thing that you have to do that you don't want to do. Right. So I went looking and there was one tiny little pamphlet, and I mean like the size of a three, you know, double three by five card. And it was 10 pages long, and all it said was communication's good, but the dying needs you talk to them. I'm going, I for a fact know that not all communication between people in relationships is good. Yeah. And it didn't tell us what people talked about. And it said, do it because the dying needed it. And I agree. I mean, I think that there's an altruistic side to it. But I kept thinking about it and I went looking, you know, for more. And there were books from people who are dying, what they wanted to say. There were books between medical professionals and the dying, and what those conversations were, some doctors, nurses, chaplains even, social workers, a few, but nothing in the family. Well, we're the ones who spend all the time with them.

Judy Oskam: 4:06

And we're there when it happens.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 4:07

We're there when it happens. We are the caregiver for the majority, whether that is days, weeks, months, over a year, two years. And so I just decided I had a job to do. And honestly, I thought it was crazy. Who's going to talk to me about their most private conversations? And yet they did.

Judy Oskam: 4:27

And they did. And I'm telling you, your first book, Final Conversations. That really helped me out in 2017 when my dad was dying. And I remember you and I, you you met me on campus and gave me the book. And that really was special to me. But in the middle of the night, I'm researching and searching, Googling all of your articles and sending them to my brother, right? Because we were the two caregivers with my mom. My mom was is still around and she's 94. So that was so impactful to read about that. Of course, we were at the very end there, but it really had some good um strategies for what to do. And I didn't, no one had ever told me those things. Why is it that some of that is unspoken?

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 5:17

Oh, because we live in a society that says don't talk about death and dying. Yeah. Because it's almost magical thinking. If I if I talk to my mom about dying, then I'm going to make her die faster. Or I'm going to make her give up hope. Or I'm going to invite in some sort of evil entity to come take her faster. And in lots of cultures, that's true. Some cultures they talk about it more. Other cultures they talk about it less than we do, which is shocking to me. Um and so and so we're just, we don't know what to say, and we're afraid to say the wrong thing. So instead, we won't say anything. Or we avoid showing up. I know people who have just avoided going until somebody forced them at the last minute to go because you know their loved one needed to see them. But the whole point of Final Conversations, and that first book came out in 2007, and the new book that just came out in 2025, The Good Goodbye, is about the fact that yes, we're doing it for the person we love. But here's a surprise for everybody. It's for us. When our loved one dies, you you either believe that they're going to heaven and they're fine, they're looking down at us, they're happy, or if you don't have a belief, then you think that they're worm food and they don't know anymore. Yeah. We remember the conversations, we carry them with us for the rest of our lives.

Judy Oskam: 6:33

I love that. Well, and you you, as a communication expert, you know the power of conversation and the power of connection. And I think that in in in your book, uh, which is The Good Goodbye, you and your your co-author, Julie Yingling. Dr. Yingling. Dr. Yingling, on the back cover it says, Death is the one thing we cannot control. We will all face the death of a loved one, and many, if not most people in our culture will be hesitant and unprepared to say goodbye.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 7:06

When we have someone we love who's dying, we're totally out of control. We often have very little decisions to make. Our loved one has some decisions to make if they're willing to. Um if they're able to. Yeah. Of course, there could be fights in the family about what to do. So if we have these conversations beforehand with our loved one, we can avoid those fights and hard feelings later on. And uh it is just the only thing we can control. So let's embrace it and understand there's not a perfect final conversation. You may later on reflect back and go, that was perfect, but don't go into a conversation expecting perfection because that's too much pressure for all of us. And and I've been teaching, you know, over three decades verbal and nonverbal communication. So sometimes it is simply the nonverbal. So showing up and spending time with them, holding their hand, making them their favorite cup of tea.

Judy Oskam: 8:00

Right.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 8:00

But it's that time and sometimes in the silence where the conversations pop out of nowhere. My mom would wake up in the middle of the night every night, the last few months, especially the last few weeks of her life. And in those quiet moments after she'd wake up, sometimes from a nightmare, and she was processing something that happened in her life that she had to process. Um, there'd be this quiet, and then an easy conversation would start that came out of the blue. And if I wasn't there at three o'clock in the morning, I wouldn't have had that opportunity.

Judy Oskam: 8:30

Yeah.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 8:31

And so I just want to encourage everyone to go and be with them as much as possible. Is it easy to watch someone you love die? No. They are shrinking, they're in pain, they're afraid. But it's also beautiful in the moments that you never expect. So I was one of my mom's caregivers. We I come from a large time, we would take turns. My two sisters are nurses, they knew how to do everything. Sure. I was not a nurse. And I remember my dad telling me once, Maureen, I love the way you lift your mother. And I go, What do you mean? He goes, Well, your sisters lift her like a nurse. You lift her like a hug.

Judy Oskam: 9:06

Oh, I'm not sure.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 9:06

Because we would I would use my whole body to lift her, and then we would just look at each other and smile and hug. You know, so I get all these extra hugs I never would have imagined. And if my dad hadn't worded it that way, I would not have realized it was something special.

Judy Oskam: 9:21

Right. Right. Right. Well, and and you know, you're right about it's not just the profound major conversations. It's you call it the everyday, right? It's it's it's the everyday conversations.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 9:34

Yeah, there are six themes that we found that people commonly talk about, and everyday talk and routine interactions are one of them. And it was probably one of the more shocking finds. And and these themes emerged, and they were absolutely right. Because what if you think about your relationships right now with your husband, with your children, it is the good morning kiss, it is what's your day gonna look like, sharing a cup of coffee, it is at the end of the day coming together, and and it's in it's those moments we're gonna miss the most because that's what kept us going every day. That is what built our relationships every day and kept them healthy. And so um, you know, I've interviewed children and adults, we've interviewed well, we've interviewed well over 150 people, adults and children, and we've surveyed well over 500 people. And um they would like the kids were talking about how important it was that daddy, who was dying of cancer, still read them their nighttime story. Routine. Routine.

Judy Oskam: 10:37

Right, right.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 10:38

Or, you know, they set up a tent in the backyard because to go camping a lot, but he wasn't up for that. So they'd set up the tent, you know, and one little one little boy asked, he was scared because he didn't know who's gonna pull his teeth, because his daddy was the the person who pulled the teeth. And so his mom said, I'll do it. And then the older brother said, Or I'll do it. Who do you want to do it? So giving the child some control over that. Yes. But they want to know that their life will go on that because little ones don't really understand. They know something's changing and there there's chaos around them, so they want that structure. Um, but we also want that kind of structure. And and I had one guy who uh had to be in his late 40s when his mother was dying, or maybe 50, and he just set up a video recorder. And he said, we just sat on the couch and we were telling stories and looking at pictures, and mom was telling us who was who. He said, and I realized life is these everyday moments.

Judy Oskam: 11:32

Yeah, I love that. I love that. So, in order for us, you know, and and the listeners to really understand, it's not something out of their control, it's something that they can do. It's just the basic everyday. Talk a little bit about the research and how you how you talk to the people, what you ask them.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 11:52

Okay, so this research over the past four years is based on four major um research studies. And the very first one was interviewing um adults and interviewing them from the age 18 to I think the oldest was 80 or 85 years old. And some of the conversations had happened only three weeks prior, and others had happened 20 years prior.

Judy Oskam: 12:15

Wow.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 12:16

And believe it or not, that interview that happened 20 years prior was more profound and more memorable than the three-week one. Because the three-week interview, she was still processing the death and hadn't had time. The grief, you mean her grief. The actual watching her mother dying, and her grief was mixed in it, but it was watching, oh, my mom died, my mom died. But when you get past that phase of it, then you start remembering the conversations, and then you're remembering, oh, this happened, or she said this, and something that didn't seem like that important at the moment may seem really profound. Occasionally, something happens in that moment, and like like the guy who was 80 years old, he knew that conversation was important.

Judy Oskam: 12:56

Yeah.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 12:56

And he said he knew it that moment, and he knew that he was the most loved because she's the only one he told that story to.

Judy Oskam: 13:02

Oh, wow.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 13:02

It was it was funny.

Judy Oskam: 13:03

Oh wow.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 13:04

Um, and so in interviewing these adults, we identified five themes. And the five themes were love, thank goodness that was the theme.

Judy Oskam: 13:12

Sure.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 13:13

Um identity, and identity is um how we kind of know who we are. As we're growing up and throughout our lives, people reflect who we are and they say messages to us, or they like you're a daughter or a son. Your daughter, your son, or you're so strong. Oh, you're so beautiful. Why do you keep putting yourself down? You need to believe, have more confidence in yourself and go look in that mirror. Look how beautiful you are. I don't want you ever do anything to your body that would change how beautiful you are, your nature, natural beauty. Or I had this one um mother tell me, her son, he was dying at 19. And Gloria, rest in peace. She just died a few days ago. Oh no. But her son told her, Mom, you need to go back to school. Very traditional Hispanic family. None of them had ever gone to college. And he said, You need to go to school for both of us because I can't go. And you're so good with kids, and you need to be their protector. So go to school and get a degree where you can do that. She went back to school and got a degree in as a social worker.

Judy Oskam: 14:12

Oh my gosh.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 14:12

Changed her life.

Judy Oskam: 14:14

Changed your life.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 14:14

And then how many lives did she change by going from being a secretary, which is what she was, administrative assistant, at Texas State. Oh my gosh, that's great. To to doing that.

Judy Oskam: 14:24

Oh my gosh.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 14:24

You know, so those are identity messages telling us kind of, you know, most of them are compliments and talking about strengths. Occasionally it's a tough relative giving a hard message. Sure. Uh, and and moving on. So the third um theme was spiritual or religious messages. And so if it's religious, it would be, oh, we said the Lord's Prayer together, or um, he told me he believed in an ever an everlasting life and Jesus Christ, and you know, um, or I'll meet you at Heaven's Gate.

Judy Oskam: 14:55

Right. Right.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 14:56

Or spiritual messages is like the message where the mother who was dying told this man, who was 80 years old, that her husband, who was his father, had come to her 10 years prior and he had died, and he walked through a door that used to be there, but they'd closed up because it was two doors into this bedroom, and lifted her off the bed and hugged her and said, I'm allowed to come this one time to tell you how much I love you. And it's beautiful here, and I will be here when it's your time to come to me. And then he laid her back down. And she she said, I knew I felt him, I knew it was true. Sure. And so the son, who was very religious but not spiritual, said, I changed that moment and I became spiritual in addition to being religious.

Judy Oskam: 15:41

Oh my gosh.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 15:42

So that was beautiful. I had another woman who um a a chosen mother was dying, and this woman's husband, um, he was dying, not Ruth. And um, she had rushed, they weren't supposed to be there that weekend. They had gone out to visit them out of as a surprise, and he ended up getting hit by a horse, and which eventually would kill him. He got hit in the head. Wow. But she finally went out to the waiting room and laid, he looked, she laid on a like a lounge, you know, a recliner chair to close her eyes, and she saw this light come down the hallway and rest on her heart, and she just knew it was him, and she said, CJ, I promise I'll look after Ruth. I she'll be fine, she'll be taken care of for just a few minutes. She said, You're safe, you can go. And then she saw the light rise above her, the orb, go out the window. And at that moment, she heard um blue, a blue uh code. Oh, yeah. You know, it died. He coded. He coded.

Judy Oskam: 16:38

Oh my gosh.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 16:39

And so she was somebody who used to sell like tractors and and those kinds of things, like real farming equipment. She went back to school, got a counseling degree, and eventually became a minister and um was a specialist at end of life. She became she said, I'm I'm supposed to be a midwife at death, and that's what I do now. Wow. Changed her life. Wow. Yeah. So then the fourth one was everyday talk. And the fifth one, um, this is a really important one. Um, it's called in the ch in the book, it's called Healing Damage Relationships. Um, academically, we called it difficult um relationship talk. So I knew that, I mean, most of the stories I was getting were from people who, oh, we had a great relationship. I love my mom. I love my husband, you know. But we all know that some of us have really challenging relationships, and maybe you're estranged. And so I had some of those people come talk to me.

Judy Oskam: 17:30

Wow.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 17:30

And they told me really powerful conversations, really powerful conversations about how um, you know, their mother just didn't love them, was just kind of cruel and um or another mother was an alcoholic, you know, and so they had these really hard conversations, and did they didn't fix everything by participating, but it started the healing journey and one healing for them, right? Healing for them, for them, yes. And actually, probably also for the dying. Yeah, probably so because they the dying wanted them to show up, and some people just can't, and I understand that sometimes you need to have your boundaries, and you you can heal those relationships other ways after the person has died. But if you can start the healing by going in, because I had one person said, you know, I had been so mad for so many years, but I'm watching this woman shrink in front of me. She's physically shrinking because that's what happens at the end of life. Yeah, and she was in pain and she was scared, and you know, people die the way they lived. So if they were kind of crotchety or grumpy, they're gonna be that way at the end of life too. But then she also started thinking about all the ways that this woman had been a good person, just not a great mom. You know, she was really good every time somebody got sick or died, the church, she'd be first person making food, and you know, and she was a great, wonderful grandmother to her two sons. She was a single mom, this woman was a single mom. And this grandmother watched them when she had to work. And it was just for whatever reason, she could not be a good mother to her, but she was a great one grandmother. And so that helped the healing process. And she said, if I hadn't done that, I was carrying so much anger that I never could have moved on. And and I did. So, and there was only about 20% of the people we talked to who had those kind of relationships, but every single one of those 20% said that was the only conversation they needed. The rest were not important to them. They said wow, that was it. And then we um did another study down the road, um study three, so I've skipped two, I'll come back to two in a minute, but we found a sixth theme. Because when I was doing interviews, which was the first study, you have to let the conversations and the themes emerge. I can't do leading questions. I can't say, because I knew all the research said people want to talk about what they want, you know, their their final wishes, or what kind of treatment or care they want, why a living will is really important. Um, what I do with the house, or, you know, lots of to do things. And not one single person I interviewed talked about it. But when we asked about it in a survey, because the survey is a quantitative study, and I can ask all sorts of questions based on research from other academics in other Studies. So, like all the studies about dying, they said that was one of the most important conversations. One of the most, you know, but for the people who are memorable, yeah, yeah, that's a to-do list. But what's memorable is you tell me you love me.

Judy Oskam: 20:10

Yeah.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 20:10

What's memorable is that hug, those hugs we had every day. You know. So it it did emerge. We have a sixth theme that I did not know for a while. I thought was there, but I couldn't prove it until we did the quantitative study. And that one, um, we called it academically instrumental death talk. And in the book, we call it taking care of the business of death and dying. Um, so the whole idea is yes, what are their final wishes? Do they have a living will? Um, do they want what what do they want for the memorial service? Do they want a memorial service? Um, I had some people, um, their spouses, if they did all the bills, told them, here are all the passwords, here are when you have to pay the bills, you know, or here's who you call when the hot water heater goes out, you know. And I even had some people tell me that they found notes from their loved ones after the person died because they had left them all these notes about how to do things.

Judy Oskam: 21:01

Yes, yeah, I love that. And so that's important too. It is important, it is important. Well, and as far as the research then, was there anything that surprised you that really you found surprising that you didn't know from your firsthand experience and your experience as a as a uh you know communication expert and a scholar? Is there anything that surprised you?

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 21:22

Oh, it all surprised me. Yeah. Because when I was looking for answers, but you lived through it though. But I didn't have any answers, and I didn't I didn't know how to organize it or to make sense of it. Got it. I just when my mom died, I realized I can breathe, and I didn't think I'd be able to breathe. I was really close with my mother and I didn't know if I had done it right or if I'd done it well. I have a PhD in interpersonal communication, and if I don't know if I'm doing it right, what what did anyone else know? But after I did that first study, I go, Oh my gosh, my dad read my first book, and my dad's not a big reader. My dad died about three years ago, and he said, Maureen, we did this right. He goes, Look, we we had all these conversations. Yeah, he goes, I didn't know. So you don't know what you don't know until you know it. Exactly. Or you find out what you didn't know.

Judy Oskam: 22:08

Exactly. Um the everyday talk surprised me. Yeah, I that really surprised me too because I I kind of missed the boat on some of my earlier final conversation stuff with my dad. I I wished I had done things differently there, and I think he probably would have too. But the everyday talk is interesting.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 22:30

You have new meaning for it, don't you now?

Judy Oskam: 22:32

A new frame. Now I have a new frame of reference. And for the listeners to understand that everyday talk, for you to operationalize that and really understand how vital it is, it's everything from just would you like coffee or can we sit down and have a chat before we watch our Netflix series or something.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 22:53

Or watching your favorite sports team or the politics and get into a discussion about politics if you enjoy that. I don't encourage that one. But you know, and it and it's it's it's it's what first it helps create the relationship, but it's what maintains relationships. It's and it's oh, telling stories and jokes and laughing at the same show or watching your favorite movie again. I mean, it's it can be anything that's everyday to you. I had um uh this one young man who a friend was dying, and they're they were like family to him, and she loved going out on the water. So he would take her out on the boat as long as she could. Yeah, and they would just drive around the lake, and he said, We talked about everything and nothing, and it was all so important, and none of it was important in that moment.

Judy Oskam: 23:37

And that's a good point. Everything but nothing. You're really talking about things that you might not think are so impactful, but they really do.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 23:44

What can I define final conversations for people? Yeah, please. So it sounds like it's a common term now, and maybe it is. Um, no one had talked about it. Everyone, if you ever heard the word final conversation, they thought it was the last message they had. If it's the last message, you're not getting a whole lot of talking because people's bodies break down and most of it's non-verbal at that end. How I defined final conversations for all four studies was any and every conversation that you have from the moment of a terminal diagnosis or old age, and you can see the person deteriorating to the moment they died. And the sooner you start the conversations and the more frequent you have these conversations, the more you'll have to hang on to in the memories of them. And if you wait until the last day, last hours, they may be unconscious. And so it'll be a one-way conversation. I still think they're important, and I think that they still hear it and it will make you feel better than if you hadn't had it. And you know, I used to I used to say, I just want to die fast, you know, and in my sleep, I don't want to know I'm gonna die, and I don't want to know my loved one's gonna die. I don't say that anymore because the biggest regret I've heard from people are who don't have a chance to have a good goodbye. And they find out their loved ones died and they go, I didn't get to say goodbye.

Judy Oskam: 24:58

Ah, okay.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 24:59

And so here's your chance to say goodbye. Here's a chance to say anything or everything you ever might want to say because it pops up. So there's no regrets. And so when my mom died, I was exhausted because I had a baby I was taking care of, that baby's now 28. Yeah, you know, and I had, you know, working full time was going back and forth between my teaching at the university and flying home to Arizona to take care of my mom during any breaks. Was I didn't have any regrets. There's nothing left to say to her. I mean, and sometimes you just repeat yourself, which is great.

Judy Oskam: 25:34

Oh yeah.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 25:34

To say I love you a million times, great.

Judy Oskam: 25:36

Exactly.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 25:36

But no regrets.

Judy Oskam: 25:37

Yeah. Well, and you you you and your co-author mentioned that in the book. You talk about say I love you as many times as you can, just say it. Even if they might not you don't think they're gonna hear it, right? Hearing it is our last ones to go. Yeah. Well, and that's I learned a lot about that from your research, the the death process. I mean, I really had never been around someone when they were dying. So I really learned a lot about that to really combine with some of the conversation, but we we really implemented some of the the um oral information, you know, really uh because we turned on the music that my dad loved. He loved a Norwegian singer. So we turned the music on, we talked to him, we told him it's okay, you're you're okay, we got it, we'll take care of mom, don't worry. We really used a lot, and I'm assuming he heard us. I I know he heard us, but I really learned a lot from that first book, and I am learning a lot from this book as well because I'm right in the middle of this with my mom. She's 94. And um, she's we're going for a hundred, but you never know. But you never know.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 26:51

So again, I really found that the everyday uh what's been the reaction uh the first book um won three National Book of the Year awards. Um, and our publisher, who was an independent publisher, small publisher, believed in sending books out for awards. That was wonderful. Um and I've had so many people who read the book and said the both books, but said, I never would have known how to do this or I would have been too afraid to do this without reading this. Because this book is written in an everyday voice. Exactly. And you're a nerd because you also looked up the academic article.

Judy Oskam: 27:23

I did, I did. But I also went back to the other book and I it really helped me. And this is written, everybody can benefit from this book.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 27:31

Well, this book is different than oh, can I give a quick tip?

Judy Oskam: 27:34

Yeah, yeah, please.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 27:35

Play the music. My mother loved music, so we had music on, her favorite music, you know, at a low level so it wasn't disturbing to her. And she also loved candlelight. So we had candlelight music. I mean, candlelights, candles on? Um, we put one on the oxygen tank with a sign on the door saying, no smoking, please. And I had an uncle who was there with his wife, my aunt, who was her sister, helping take care. And he was going around trying to talk to my brothers who are firefighters, my sisters who are nurses, and I was like, Yeah, mom loves candlelight. Mom loves candlelight. He finally went up to one of them who finally listened to him and said, I said, Is it good to have a candle on the oxygen tank? And we all went, No, oh my God, we could have blown us all up. So don't put candlelight. That's right. Do the fake ones now. They have a fake ones.

Judy Oskam: 28:19

They have really good, good fake ones now. That's true. That was true. That's true.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 28:23

But but this book, um, this second book that just came out in June, is really the culmination of twenty over 20 years of research. And not only does it highlight all six themes, um, and they're more succinct, they're tighter chapters, um, because our publisher Hay House wanted it only so many words. We cut 40,000 words out of this book. Oh my gosh.

Judy Oskam: 28:45

Wow.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 28:46

It's almost another book.

Judy Oskam: 28:47

Sure.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 28:47

But um, we also talk about what are the advantages and benefits of having these final conversations. We talk about the challenges um of these final conversations. We talk about culture. We didn't, I didn't I didn't find out about culture until the third or fourth study, yeah, um, which was a quantitative study. And um so that was important. And it's not specific about any one culture, it's more generalized about differences in culture. Um, there's a chapter in here called Beyond Words that's nonverbal.

Judy Oskam: 29:15

I I love that chapter because it really gives you some ideas for what you could do that would really make a big impact. Yeah, you know, and visually as well, you know. I think there's I just know that I just know, you know, in my situation, just a hug and really makes a difference. And it's just it's just really timely for me. So I really appreciate it.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 29:40

Well, and spending that time, you're busy, Judy. Oh, I know. So I know, but because you understand this, you're making the time to go be with her.

Judy Oskam: 29:47

I'm I'm gonna do it better. Yeah, I'm gonna do it better because I I'm like you. And you know, my brother and I have both said we don't we don't want to have any regrets. We want to leave it all on the table, you know, leave it all on the field. We want to do everything we can to make her life, you know, recognize and let her exit with dignity. Um peace, but it also comes back to us. Talk a little bit more about that because how did that help you individually? Because you were very busy too. You were going through the same thing I'm going through right now. But with a baby, but with a baby, with a baby, and a and a husband. And a husband, yes.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 30:26

Well, we talked about that um in chapter 10. We talked about so what are the benefits? What did I get out of it?

Judy Oskam: 30:32

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 30:32

Acceptance that that this is going to happen and I can't do anything to control it. And when you see somebody you love deteriorating and it's hard, yeah. But you see them accepting that they're going to die and they're okay with it, and they're actually as it they get closer, they get more at peace with it. Not all, but most people get more at peace with it. And if my mom could accept her death, then I could why shouldn't we? And why and why would I want to watch her in pain any longer than she had already been? Yeah, for sure. So acceptance, for sure, closure, nothing left in said, but closure takes time. You know, because you think you've you've closed it, and then a window opens, and there's something else you want to say. Yeah. So closure. Um coping. I learned how to cope. Um, I learned how to become more vulnerable. I n was a witness to my mother's strength and to her peace at the end of life.

Judy Oskam: 31:20

I love that.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 31:20

Um, I saw that she didn't have any regrets either. And we helped her heal some wounds so that she was able to pass over because she was she was pretty mad at God because of something that happened to her as a child from a priest. So that was good to see her healing that and to lose that fear and that anger. Did she let it go or did she just have a better understanding of it? I know. She had nightmares about it every night and and then wouldn't talk to us about specifics, but we would just talk about how no, that evil man was never going to be in heaven with her, and she would never have to see this person. She would never have to re-experience that pain or fear, whatever she had, and there was safety. And she also um wasn't sure if there was a God, and then by the end, she did believe in God again. She wasn't sure if there were angels, but her daughters did believe in angels, and so that helped her. By the way, don't preach at them. This was an invited talk. You cannot preach your belief system at your loved one. Um, sometimes my sisters and I would have this side conversation, um, and my mom would listen. And she'd be in the room. She'd be in the room, and she wanted to hear it. She wanted us to talk about it. Yeah, she just didn't want us preaching at her, and we did not. Um, and then what I didn't find out to the very the fourth study was personal growth. How important, what what can how am I growing from this experience? But you do. Yes, you do. And so one, it you see how you can relate to others and help them. You find out maybe there's new possibilities for you to do, like that mother who went back to school. Yeah. Others changed careers, um, some um had no idea their own personal strength until they saw what they went through with their loved one who was dying, or because that person they loved told them about their personal strength and then they noticed in other parts of their life. Um, some had a s a spiritual change, um, or maybe a renewed faith in their religion, or just a larger grasp of spiritual beliefs systems.

Judy Oskam: 33:21

Yeah.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 33:22

Um, and then they also walked away from the experience with an appreciation for life. That life is short and what do I want to do with my life now?

Judy Oskam: 33:32

I love that. I love that because I think when when you lose somebody, you do relish what you have, you know.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 33:39

I I thought I would find out that grief was eased. I did not find that answer in the in the surveys. And I don't know if I asked the question wrong. Um, because from my personal experience, I still had grief. Grief is grief. You love someone who dies, you're gonna feel that grief. But mine didn't last as deep or as long as I thought it would. Um but I didn't ask that question. But I did realize that grief is grief. When you love somebody, any amount of conversation is gonna take away that grief. You're still gonna have it. Sure. It may change what it would have looked like, but you don't know now because you've had the final conversation.

Judy Oskam: 34:12

Yeah, I love that.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 34:13

You know, those kinds of things.

Judy Oskam: 34:14

Um what else? Well, and you guys also uh talk about the spiritual part of this, and that and did you hear about some of that in your study from your uh participants about signs, and I'm fascinated by that. Talk about that if you will.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 34:31

Well, it came up a number of different ways. One, it came up with the first study in and adults telling us about those experiences. And some of those adults were children when they lost someone, and that made me want to do the second study, which was talking to children from five to seventeen. And some of them, you could hear them parroting their parents' beliefs. Oh, my father said he's going to go prepare a home in heaven for us. Um, another one, a little girl was dying from cancer, and she got in a fight with her brother, and they were arguing about what the streets of heaven, what the what the roads look like. And she thought he thought they were covered in gold, and she said, no, they're ruby, ruby red like my slippers. She was a dancer. And then so they, you know, they talked about their own with what their own beliefs, and that comforted both of them. Um and so we heard lots of beautiful stories like that. But then um, oh actually, I did a fifth study.

Judy Oskam: 35:24

Oh I did a fifth study.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 35:26

Of course you did, but it was a smaller one. But this was the one that talks about um the chapter that talks about the conversations continue. And I had so many people in the first study talk about this, but I was I was a tenured associate professor and I wanted to be a full professor. And I thought it sounded a little woo-woo. I love the woo-woo. Bring it. So I didn't want to talk about it in the first book, and I didn't, I hadn't we hadn't set it up to so that I could really do it. But this one, I did a specific study just asking people have you had any experiences where you feel like your loved one is reaching across and sending you a sign or talking to you? And wow, I got some great stories from those. And some were um typical signs you hear, um, butterflies or um red jays or bluebirds, or you know, what or um dragonflies. Um are just finding uh angel's feather, you know, or for others it's a penny. Yeah. Um one mother, her her little boy died. And she said, you know, they were just so grief stricken. And um, they started finding signs from him. Like one day she went looking in a in a high cabinet to to get something to to mix, you know, a special dessert or something. Um and she saw a card in there, and so she pulls it out. It was a card in his handwriting. She had never seen it before, saying, Mommy, I love you.

Judy Oskam: 36:58

Oh my gosh.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 36:58

Yeah. And then that same mother talked about how her husband went um out to fix their mailbox or something. It was broken. And so he's having to dig it up and he's cursing and he's frustrated. He goes, I wish I had another hand. And then um he looks down and sees those little army men, it's missing a hand.

Judy Oskam: 37:18

Oh my gosh.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 37:18

And then he finds the hand and he started laughing. He said, 'cause and his son loved these toys.

Judy Oskam: 37:22

Yeah.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 37:23

Never played near the mailbox with these toys. And there was that. So she kept finding all these signs. Some people would walk into a room and they often smell um the cigar that their grandfather smoked, or the the favorite flower that uh their mother loved and the perfume she would wear. Um, some have got messages in dreams.

Judy Oskam: 37:44

Yeah.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 37:45

So um Colleen was in the middle of a dream, and all of a sudden her mom was there. And she said, Mom, what are you doing here in this dream? You're not supposed to be here. She said, No, I'm not, but I could finally get to you. I've been trying to get to you. I just need you to know I love you, and I will always be here when you need me. So and then the mom was gone.

Judy Oskam: 38:10

Yeah. Oh my god.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 38:11

You know, and I had lots of people talk about their dreams too. It was and and they said, But it wasn't a dream. They said, I know somebody's gonna say it was just a dream, it was not a dream. I felt their presence. One woman um had moved into her grandmother's grandparents' house and they were remodeling. And so all you could smell was paint and fresh paint, and you know, they'd gotten rid of all the old stuff. And then she woke up in the middle of the night one night and she said, It's she smelled like the old house. And she sees her grandparents standing at the foot of the bed, and they're just smiling at her and shaking their head, yes. And then they were gone, and then the smell was gone. And she said she thinks it was just them coming to give their approval of how happy they were that she was living there with her new family in the house.

Judy Oskam: 38:51

Oh my gosh, I love that. Oh my gosh.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 38:54

So if that doesn't, if those kinds of experiences don't expand your spirituality, I don't know what way. I know, I know. But also how comforting. Exactly. In my office at here at the university, you know, I have a doorstop. And almost every time I'm in my office, um, all of a sudden the door moves the doorstop about two feet. And I just laugh. I go, hi, mom, thanks for visiting. Because I think that's my mother. Exactly. And well, I I won't know the answer about that till I get to heaven, but that's right. But I believe it so for me, it's my reality.

Judy Oskam: 39:26

Exactly. Well, and my mom, her favorite thing is butterflies. And I know whether she did that strategically to plant that in my head, that everywhere I see butterflies, I know it's gonna be her. Yes. And so we she has butterfly pictures all over the house, and there's they're everywhere, and that's sort of her thing.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 39:46

I hope you keep your favorite one and put it in your house.

Judy Oskam: 39:48

I know, I think I will. Well, there's so many I could choose from, but I think that's what a smart as a mother to plant that idea. To plant that idea. Whether she did that on purpose or not, but I just think it's there are ways that. We can kind of use this information, and this is all research-based. It also research-based. But then also trust your intuition, there's a knowing. Exactly.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 40:07

So there's a woman in the book named Susu, and her husband died of very quickly of lung cancer, like within four weeks of being diagnosed, and it should have been more like two, but he was on, he was intimated about 10 days. Anyway, um, right as they're about to to unplug him, right? Because he's b fully breathing on the machine, not him. And his brother leans down and said, Brother, you need to show me a sign so that I know what to look for. So come back to me. So that same day, they go back to the house. And supposedly the dying can stick around for a few days if they want to to kind of get their you know balance. Um, and he's out back, and this butterfly lands on his beer can.

unknown: 40:52

Oh my god.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 40:53

And stays there for like a minute or two minutes and doesn't leave. And he's laughing. The brother goes, Ah, brother, I never thought you'd be a butterfly, but okay, thank you. And then that same butterfly, the door opens, flies into the house, and lands on the fan, and it goes round and round and round. And they're watching this butterfly in the house. Butterflies don't fly into houses. And then came back and flew on his wife's hand.

Judy Oskam: 41:15

Yeah.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 41:15

And stayed on her hand for about a minute. And then the door opened again and the butterfly flew out. And this same woman and her grown sons um talk about this time they were driving somewhere, either to her family or his family in either east or west Texas. They get swarmed by a swarm of butterflies. The car swarmed them. And they go, Well, I guess dad's on the road with us. Yeah. And then left. I mean, it wasn't dangerous, but it was butterflies all the time.

Judy Oskam: 41:41

Butterflies. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Dr. Keeley, this is such fascinating work. Uh, any last-minute tips you would give to uh readers and listeners?

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 41:52

Yes. A couple. One is please tell your children sooner.

unknown: 41:56

Yes.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 41:57

I understand if they're little, little, yeah, um, but they are watching how quiet the house has gotten. They know that the routine is disturbed, they know there's hushes and secrets going on. So do you need to tell them and use- Be open. Be open and use real words. Don't say mommy's gone to sleep. Then they're gonna think mommy's gonna wake up and they're not. So say mommy has died, and explain what that means. And teenagers absolutely know what's going on, but from five up, they need to know what's going on. So please be honest. There's a couple chapters in here, one's called Out of the Mouth of Babes, and they give you all the things. So it's it's how to talk to those who are dying, and they're also giving advice to those who are dying, how to talk to the children. Yeah, children were they're brilliant. And then um, we also talked about um I think it's important to realize it's not easy. We're I'm not trying to sugarcoat this. It will be hard. Yeah, some of the hardest things you can do.

Judy Oskam: 42:51

Yes.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 42:52

Um and it's hard because there's obstacles to having good final conversations. So, like, you need to have some privacy. So every person deserves one-on-one time with them. Um, sometimes there's you think there's topics to be avoided because they're taboo in your family. That's up to you to decide.

Judy Oskam: 43:10

Yeah.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 43:10

Um sometimes you suppress emotions because we don't cry in this family, or I'm not gonna cry in front of my mom because then it'll make her cry or make her feel worse. It's okay to cry. And it's okay to laugh. It's okay to show emotions. Um try to give yourself as much time, which means showing up as much as you can. If you can't show up, then do make the FaceTime or the phone call. That was better than nothing at all. Understand the health areas is going to slow things down. So, like my father had dementia. And so I made sure I had these conversations way earlier when he still could understand them. Yeah. Um, and not wait until they no longer could connect with you. Um, and then sometimes we all all have our own individual hangups. And our very last chapter just talks about how you can do it too. I mean, you're talking to two communication professors. We've been doing this a combined 65 years.

Judy Oskam: 43:57

Yeah, right.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 43:58

I'm an expert in interpersonal communication. She was an expert in communication across the lifespan. And um, so we have kind of a to-do list of how to help you.

Judy Oskam: 44:08

It's a great book. And simple. It's simple, it's doable. It, I wish I'd had this in 2017, but I had your other book, so that was helpful. So I think this is such a great resource, such a great tool. Thank you for joining me today. Such important information. Thank you so much. I'm gonna do a TED talk on this in February. Oh, that's right. I love that. I'll be there.

Dr. Maureen Keeley: 44:26

Uh happy gonna be there. Thank you for having me, and thank you for believing in my research all these years.

Judy Oskam: 44:31

And oh well. And I'm glad it's helped you. Super helpful. And again, I know it can help so many others. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for joining us. Dr. Keeley made it clear there isn't a perfect final conversation, and there doesn't have to be. What matters is showing up in whatever ways you can. Sometimes that looks like meaningful words, sometimes it's just being in the room. One of my biggest takeaways is that these moments aren't only for the person who is dying, they're also for the people who remain. We carry these conversations with us. And maybe the more we make space, the better for both parties. Well, thank you for listening to Stories of Change and Creativity. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who may need it and consider leaving a review. It truly helps more listeners find the show. Thanks for listening.