Understanding Your Relationship with Money — Financial Psychology with Mary Liz Burns

Judy Oskam: 0:02

What's your relationship with money? Do you worry, like me, about having enough? Are you anxious about money? Well, welcome to Stories of Change and Creativity. I'm Judy Oskam and I'm a professor at Texas State University. On this episode, I'm talking with Mary Liz Burns about the psychology of money. Mary Liz has more than two decades of experience in personal finance communications and media. She has an MBA with a focus on financial psychology, and she's a certified senior advisor. Mary Liz doesn't share financial advice like what to buy and sell and when.

Mary Liz Burns: 1:02

You know, I have been fascinated by how my relationship with money has changed over the years. Depending on, I can think back to some memories that we can talk about as a young person and realizing the importance of money, or at least what I thought was important about money, and then realizing how I used money sometimes, not in the best ways. And then as I'm looking towards, you know, my aging, you know, time on this earth, I've realized that there's so much fear and shame that I feel, but also with so many other people how they feel about money. And my goal from now until the day I die is to try to reduce the fear and the shame that we have and to have a more open conversation about money, not only with our friends and family, but first with ourselves. And sometimes that's the hardest step.

Judy Oskam: 1:49

Well, but you didn't start in money. You didn't start in that industry. You had a big career in public relations and corporate communication. And how did you make that transition? Because that was a flip.

Mary Liz Burns: 2:03

Yes, you know, my studies were always in communications. So similar to you, like I love the idea of the megaphone and how you can change public perception many times by the kind of campaigns you can create, you know, things that are really relevant to people. So I worked for AARP for over 22 years, and I learned a lot about aging, a lot about healthcare, a lot about finances, you know, grandparents taking care of grandchildren. Like I did a lot of work in Tennessee on that issue, trying to help people stay on Medicaid, seeing the importance of social security, especially as we age. And I was lucky enough to work in our national office and worked on some really big campaigns in our media department and also in our communications and marketing. But you know, I felt like the campaigns that I was doing, um, asking people to save more for retirement or delay claiming Social Security or manage your credit card debt, they're all really important and there's some great messaging. And that education is critical, but I was missing the human connection because when I would talk to people about these campaigns, they would give me their personal stories and say why they felt even worse sometimes hearing some of these messages.

Judy Oskam: 3:15

Sure.

Mary Liz Burns: 3:15

Because they realized they couldn't do it, you know, and they wondered what was in it for them. You know, the financial industry doesn't seem to be interested in people like me, they would say. And I thought to myself, there's got to be a different way to approach money than what we're doing. And that's how I kind of stumbled into the field of financial psychology, which we could talk about. It just marries to me the ideas around money and education, but really puts the human in the center and starts with like how people think and believe, which I think is a key piece.

Judy Oskam: 3:47

Well, why do we struggle with our relationship with money? And I can tell you, I've I have struggles as well, and I'm still, I still think I never have enough, you know? I never have enough. So there's that. And so as I'm aging, continue to age, but I'm always interested in finding out how to live my best life. And how do I do that? But why, why do we have such a challenge with money in the relationship?

Mary Liz Burns: 4:16

You know, I've thought about that a lot. And I think, first of all, when we're born, we don't have like this money playbook that's readily available. We we learn by observing, and so everybody has had different upbringing. Some people were uh living with two parents, like I was very lucky. My dad, you know, um uh was self-made. He had nothing growing up from Milwaukee and he's self-made and he was very proud of that. And so my lessons about learning about sort of what it takes to own a business and then to be generous, because he gave pensions to all of his employees as an insurance company, which is like unheard of. And I saw the importance of tithing to the church and those things. But I think if if I didn't have those lessons, which a lot of my friends didn't, you know, it's it becomes a struggle in knowing where does money fit into your life? And you don't necessarily have the right information at hand because you're hearing from other people that sometimes have their own agendas and their own ideas about money. And we're also we're fed so many things that test us and sometimes trip us up. If you go to college or even if you don't at 18, how many credit card companies reach out to you to get a credit card, not even knowing? How about the mortgage that maybe you can or cannot afford and so many people have gotten in trouble? And student loans today. So it depends on how you are set up, but then also how do you learn about money and what it's really doing to your mental health and to your physical health and really taking stock of it? We don't have kind of that ready-made test like we do when we go to the doctors, hopefully, every year to get a physical. We don't sometimes know how to deal with money, especially when it's challenging us. So we have to be really intentional, and that's what I hope that we can continue to do from conversations like this.

Judy Oskam: 6:02

Exactly. Well, and I think uh, you know, our country is such a consumer-driven country, and I think people see that, and you have access to a lot of consumer goods, and I think that, and I remember when when my husband and I bought our first house, they they told us that we didn't have enough credit. And I don't know, you might not be able to buy a house, you don't have enough credit. And I said, as a as a young 20-something, you know, mid-20s, I said, I thought it was good not to have a lot of credit. You know, I've always been taught try and not have a lot of credit. So again, those mixed messages come through, and which is why I think you really decided to do what you do and go help individuals with their decisions. Um, but I think, you know, let's look, you know, look back at our childhood. You shared some of yours. And I know in my case, I really learned a lot. My dad was an entrepreneur and very much of a self-starter, self-made as well. And my mom, they were married young and learned how to work together, but they had to struggle in their 60s, and I saw them really having to rebuild, which I greatly admire, and think, oh my gosh, how do they do that? And come out on top at the end. So, I mean, I think it's challenging to really explore why do we think the way we think about money?

Mary Liz Burns: 7:27

Yeah, I agree with you. And I, you know, if I could share the story, um, you know, when I was young, that really uh when I was asked first to do some assignments around financial psychology, they want you to look at your personal story. And so it was reflecting back on one of the earliest memories I had about money. And one of them was that, as I said, my dad was self-made. And um, he the one thing he loved to do was to go out to eat. Loved it. He liked to like take clients or, you know, take his family. And at five years old, he had he told me, I can bring my best friend Beth, and we're gonna go to this fancy place called the Maxwell House. So we got dressed up. I wore one of my best dresses. My friend Beth was so excited. It was a white tablecloth, you know, fancy people coming exactly, fawning all over us, flambays here, you know, variety of things happening, like a show. And um, my dad had veal a la Oscar. And to this day, I had no idea what it was, but my Beth was like, What is that? What I took away from that lesson was that I saw Beth be so excited and so like to be with me and to be with our family. And there's obviously expensive bill that was happening. She didn't care about the money, but to me, my lesson was wow, I need to make enough money that I can take people out, that I can show them a good time, and therefore they'll want to be my friend. And, you know, money is a is a currency to keep people around me. And I bet you some of your listeners probably have had something similar in that I started to use money to not to buy friendships, but to secure them. You know, like thinking, if I get gifts for people, if I take them out, if I am always the one picking up the check. And that got me in a lot of trouble, especially in my 20s. I had a lot of credit card debt. And I finally realized I was good enough not to only be using money. And I think money, it's such a stigma and it's emotional, it's not rational, that um, you know, it takes, it takes us trying to figure out what that looks like.

Judy Oskam: 9:26

Well, and I think there's the scarcity mindset and the abundance mindset. And I know I sort of grew up with the idea and and I heard it in my household. It was well, if you if you want to try this and go this direction, then just find the way to do it. Find the way instead of a no, I never, I still don't like to hear the word no. So it's always like, where can I find the yes? And so I started seeing money as as a resource. And so uh I remember telling, telling my daughters, I've got daughters in their 20s in their 20s, each of them are in their 20s. And uh, when they want to do something, I say, well, you have to just find a way to go make more money. You just have to go find a way to find that resource. So I think that's more of the abundance mindset than the scarcity, and that no, we can't do that because this is the amount of money we make.

Mary Liz Burns: 10:19

You know, that's a great way to look at it.

Judy Oskam: 10:21

The finite resource of money, I think is something that people get stuck on, maybe. I don't know, you're the expert in that.

Mary Liz Burns: 10:28

No, I think you're exactly right. I like the abundance and scarcity. There's a lot of ways to look at that. But you know, when I I heard the other day, someone I was talking with about this, uh, they said they did like to say no. When a kid said, like, we want to go on this fancy trip, you know, the school trip, and maybe the family just doesn't can't afford it right now. Instead of saying no, because the kid learns, well, you know, it's just my parents' fault, they say it's not in the budget. And I think understanding that there's a plan, and many times parents, you know, this is not at all about parents, you know, we know we do the best we can. And, you know, but the idea of like learning that there are some boundaries and that there's a a reason, there's a plan to this. A lot of people don't talk to their family about it. And that's another thing, especially, you know, for kids today, because they can buy almost anything with one click and they kind of forget, you know, like where money comes from, even if you didn't come from that, there's there's a lot of resources to help you be able to have more productive conversations, you know, and and lessons, you know, throughout your time.

Judy Oskam: 11:26

Yeah, yeah, I think so. And and you know, you talk with and and and on your website, and and we'll put the links down in the show notes and everything. You talk about the uh knowing your money story. How does someone start to really understand what their story is? Is there like a framework for that?

Mary Liz Burns: 11:45

Yeah, so you know, there's a lot of different kinds of frameworks. So you hear money stories, money scripts, you know, variety of it. I studied with doctors Brad and Ted Klontz at Creighton University, and that's where I got my MBA of emphasis in financial psychology. I really like theirs. And there's four basic money scripts. The way you come to it first, though, is that you do think about your financial flashpoints, you know what they call, which is those kind of powerful events that stay with us until adulthood. You know, maybe there was trauma, um, divorce, you know, loss of job, bankruptcy, grew up rich or poor, like these things that really shape who you are. And that forms many times subconsciously our money beliefs. And many times those things are passed down even generationally, like my parents were from products of the depression, you know, and like and sort of the way that they grew up in those pieces of it. So these kind of money scripts, and I'll tell you the four of them, and just know that it's not a finite set of four in terms of you might be part of two of them, two of the four, but they really help me think through this piece of it. One is money avoidance. And think of money avoidance as rich people are greedy. You know, I don't think I deserve that money, or that person definitely doesn't deserve that money, or, you know, I don't know enough about money. So therefore, what can I do about that? Um, the second one is called money status. And that's, you know, people who self-worth equals net worth. You know, it's like they're the ones that are kind of flashing the stuff in front of you, you know, the the new cars. They like to buy things that are new. And it's just showing that you've made it, you know, it's so really important. Then there's money focus, which is a little different. It's that if only I had more money, I'd be happier. If only, you know, there's just more abundant money that I'll never have to worry about retirement. I'll never, you know, money is the answer to everything, to every problem that's in my life. And then there's money vigilance. And that is more where you have a really healthy emergency savings. You know, you want to always look at your statements. You are, you know, constantly worried about maybe running out of money, but you're also likely not to have credit card debt, likely not to have a lot of mortgage debt, like you're pretty, you know, consistent with that. None of them have are good or bad. I want to be really clear. You know, we're all a little bit of everything, but it does help to frame like, what is it that I believe about money? Uh, how have my financial behaviors kind of come across, the outcomes I have as a result of the story? And knowing that story doesn't mean you're stuck in the story. It just means at least you have a baseline and understanding where it's coming from and thinking through does it help me? Does it serve me well? Or are there things about it that I need to really think about and analyze and think about maybe some new approaches?

Judy Oskam: 14:33

That's very fascinating. And I think number one and two are really interesting. I have a little three and four, I think.

Mary Liz Burns: 14:40

Yes, yes. I would say for me, I'm I like to think I'm always money vigilant. I mean, I am. I do look at my things a lot. But then I also, you know, uh a little bit of uh sort of money focused sometimes too. Just like thinking, like, oh, I wish, you know, if you look at it too much, as they say, like, don't look at your your statements all the time because it'll drive you crazy with the with the economy. But um, keeping it in the center is never a really good idea. And I think it's just it's hard not to in today's world.

Judy Oskam: 15:08

Well, and I think too, I always tell people, uh, anybody who's you know making a decision, don't make a decision only based on money. You've really got to look at everything. And I know people will take a new job for X number of dollars more, and I think you've got to really estimate all of the things that go around those decisions, you know. Absolutely. Absolutely. So money, money being um, I mean, I mean, you know, we know what money is. It's a it's a it's a commodity, it's a it's a resource. But I mean, how do you describe money? How do you describe it?

Mary Liz Burns: 15:41

To me, it gives us agency, it allows us to um make things hopefully come true for us, especially as it comes to helping others. It helps us be able to create a life for people that we love if we end up having a family or even not with our friends. Um, it it also gives us some freedom. You know, I've worked on a lot of campaigns kind of called financial freedom. And like, what does that mean? To me, um, having money to be able to sustain a lifestyle that um frankly, people use the word comfortable, and that really to me sometimes uh sounds a little bit uppity. Um, I like it better that you think of a life that can suit what you want to do, your purpose in life, and gives you more peace of mind. And that's another reason why I think financial psychology is critical. I've seen so many studies that right now people are losing sleep, including Gen Z and millennials, actually, quite a bit because of the recession and the COVID and then the drop in the stock market in 2021. You know, they're coming out. My nephew's coming out from a job market, and you know, it's not easy right now to try to find, you know, employment. So people are losing sleep, they're more stressed than ever. And divorces, you know, 20 to 40 percent of divorces are due to money challenges, you know, and you would think about something else, but money is really a big piece. And so to me, money allows us to be able to uh relax a bit into understanding that we have a purpose, that we could do the things that really bring us joy, bring others joy, and help us to be able to sleep at night, which I know is hard for a lot of people.

Judy Oskam: 17:19

Yeah, it is, it is. And I know that I've got friends of all ages that are in different stages, but I always want to tell them when you look back, there's always been hurdles, they've always been challenges throughout the years. Um, I just I just remember the idea of money and and um security is really important. And I know back when I was a kid, my mom used to say, and of course, this was of the age, it's just as easy to love a rich man as a poor man. And you know, you know, she's 94 now, so you know, um, I didn't really listen to her, and I wish I had, but that's okay. But that's okay, it was for love. It was for love. It's for love that's very rich, that's right, very rich, you know. That's worth it, that's very much worth it. But but I think there's just some some issues that people bring, and again, that's part of that baggage, right?

Mary Liz Burns: 18:15

Yeah, and that's also how we change in our relationship with money. And I was thinking about kind of breaking it into three ages when I talk about it. When you're young, you're trying to make money, right? And that's what you'll see on TikTok and on Instagram, all the ways to make passive income or increase your money. I do believe, especially for women to negotiate higher salaries, uh, that's a key piece because women, I saw the stat, 75% of all wealth will be influenced by women by 2030. 75%. So think about that, you know. Um we have to women are always cajoled to do even more. But I think, especially when it comes to money, no matter who is your financial boss, supposedly in the family, like we all need to be involved. And then when you're middle-aged, it's like you're either supporting kids or you're supporting friends, or you know, you're trying to sort of think through how you can make sure and pay off the mortgage or think about having something that's a little bit less debt. Then when you're, you know, older, and I wonder if your mom feels this way. It is all about security and safety. Yes. That's what money is. It doesn't matter if you're saying doesn't want to run out. Yeah, it's just they feel, and I I have a big fear. We don't have children, so I have a big fear of I don't know if it I doubt anyone's gonna necessarily take care of old Mary Liz. So I'm already thinking about what it means to be a solo ager. My husband is 10 years older, and you know, I have to be prepared for that. So knowing that my money may also be providing me as like a stability is so key. And I'm part of Gen Gen X, and this generation started to be the one, and it may be also true for you too, that for everybody here on the listening, but pensions are bygone. I mean, you know, people are not having a floor of this like healthy pensions any longer. This country is all about really pretty much self-pay and self-directed. And again, it goes back to we didn't have a money playbook. So what are we supposed to do? How are we supposed to learn? And that's where where I fit in, I think, is I'm not, I really want to just talk to people about money and help them feel better to help them make better decisions. Where other professionals, if they decide to have money managed or to invest in something, they at least know the questions they can ask. They know where they're coming from, and that's where I'm gonna get my satisfaction.

Judy Oskam: 20:26

Oh, I I I love that. And I love how you've transitioned your career into one of purpose and something that you want to really focus on for the rest of your life to help others as we go through there, because money's not going away and we're still gonna need it. And again, as much as as much as people complain about um, you know, our consumer-driven society, that's just a reality. And it's like that worldwide as well. So not just here. That was true. It's true. Yeah, absolutely. Well, if if uh, you know, listeners are are are wondering, well, where do I start with this? What what do I do first to really better understand my own psychology around money? Where do they start?

Mary Liz Burns: 21:12

Yes. So, you know, let me first just say that this whole conversation is for anybody across the income spectrum. This isn't about if you have a lot of money now, exactly or how much debt you have, it's for everybody. So the first thing is I really like Brad Klantz's uh money script test and the link I'll give it to you that you can be able to put into the show notes, but it's https://www.bradklontz.com/moneyscriptstest money scripts test. And so you it's for free. You will give them your email so you get the results back. Sure. But it's a great way, it's a really detailed questionnaire and kind of gives you a sense in those four scripts I talked about, like kind of where do you fall? And again, there's no right or wrong. So that's what's key. Um, and then the second thing I'd say is, you know, be compassionate with yourself. You know, I partly it's if if you've been avoiding opening up some bills, or if you feel like you just you're not sure where to start, the first thing is to be compassionate with yourself, but just say, you can do this. I need to become more aware of where I am financially. You don't need to create a fancy budget. You can just look at your bank statement. You can just think through what are some of the big debts and things that might be causing you some stress. And there are a lot of people who could help you kind of get started. I'm a big believer in small steps. So know where you are with your money and then maybe get a goal. I know it's still you got, you know, a few months left of this year. Maybe there's one thing in particular you could try to tackle and really come up with some help, even your friends and family to help you be able to accomplish something based on a goal, you know, or even have a conversation with some of your friends and family about what you're feeling. So a lot of times just opening up the door, you'll find a lot more support there. So do the test and then also just don't be afraid to talk to your friends and family. You know, it's key.

Judy Oskam: 22:56

Maybe make a plan to make a plan, right?

Mary Liz Burns: 22:58

Make a plan to make a plan. Get started. Absolutely.

Judy Oskam: 23:01

Yeah, just kind of take it, take a small step.

Mary Liz Burns: 23:03

And then it touches everybody. And that's that's the other thing I'd say is that this field is not just only for the financial industry. Like if you deal with your parents or you deal with, you know, clients on your own, or if you're an employer and you're wondering why your employee is missing time, sometimes it's due to financial challenges. Like we all have to have a role to play in making sure that people understand there are resources and that they're not alone.

Judy Oskam: 23:29

And that they, we individuals have uh control, or that's right. Uh, we have the power to to make changes. I think that's a real key because I think that feeling of, well, I don't make that much money, or I don't really deserve to be in those spaces, you really do, right?

Mary Liz Burns: 23:49

I mean, absolutely. And even if, say, you really feel and you've done everything, it's like, I really don't think I can save anymore. Just being aware of where you are, being comfortable with who you are, and then just knowing you have time to plan, because maybe you do have to adjust your plans based on where you are, but it's it starts with awareness. It starts with that confidence and that honesty with us, which with ourselves, which is not easy. Financial education alone and the data backs it up, is not enough to change behavior. Like you need it, but it's not enough. We have to bring the human piece to this. So, everybody who has a megaphone, which like you do and like other people do, I'm interested in talking with you.

Judy Oskam: 24:27

Oh, I love that. I love that. Well, thank you so much for jumping in and sharing and educating us about money because it's what a what a great important topic for us. Thank you, Mary Liz.

Mary Liz Burns: 24:39

Thank you so much for the opportunity, Judy. It was great.

Judy Oskam: 24:43

Well, some key takeaways from me. Learning your money story. It's really interesting. I took the free Klontz Money Script inventory, the one that Mary Liz recommended. And I wasn't surprised to learn that I do have some anxiety around money. I'll leave the link to take this assessment in the show notes. Uh my results ended up in the spam folder, so watch for that if you do take the assessment. Another takeaway, understand the stage that you're in with regard to money and the importance of taking small steps. I'm making a plan to make a plan. I love it. Well, and there's still time for me before the end of the year to make some positive changes. You can do it too. I'm already working on my homework. Well, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. I'm Judy Oskam. Thanks for listening.